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Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Discuss vintage Kenner and Palitoy Star Wars toys from the 1977-1985 era.
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby spoons » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:42 pm

How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ScruffyLookingNH » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:48 pm

spoons wrote:How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times


So true. It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway? I think we end up with much more awareness here because this is where it broke, TT is over here and pedled them over here and because Jason is active here. You only need to see the level of ignorance on some FB groups calling everything from Kenner to Tsukuda's TTs to know that most bother don't educating themselves when it's already been mostly done for them.

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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Plastikheld » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:49 pm

ScruffyLookingNH wrote:It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway?


As far as I’m located in Germany I would like to write down my point of view.
Please excuse my spelling and formulations, but I will do my best to explain and I hope anybody will understand what I mean.

Yes, we do have an equivalent for SWFUK in Germany called „lichtgeschwindigkeit.de“ (whicht means „lightspeed“). For a long time it was a good running forum, with many experienced collectors. But after some personal disputes and the upcoming of facebook, many of the experienced collectors have left the forum (and joined the FB groups)and there is no longer a collecting community comparable to what you have with SWFUK. That’s the reason why I also joined this wonderful forum, but my home is still LG, where I’m a long time member and well known collector (I think/hope) :wink: .

The TT topic seems to be a kind of taboo, cause also over here many collectors have spent (and lost) a lot of money in buying TTs over the years. Especially the german cards, of course. So when the Toy Tony scandal popped up, we had some guys, like Wolff (wbobafett), who tried to help getting the mystery solved.

Some collectors wanted to get rid a fast as possible of their TT MOCs, but most of them kept them in silence. Sadly the german community is full of greed and „dick-comparison-contests“ (don’t know, if this term is used in english - means to prove that one collection is better than the other).

As a result of this, the experienced collectors educated theirself - but did not spread the word and kept their knowledge shut. So nowadays I often see the newbies or those whose english skills are not that far to join the international community are simply don’t know what the TT scandal really was about or where to educate theirself (don’t kow how often I referred to Jasons page, but I think it did not helped a lot).

Sadly the newer colltectors are often willing to invest large amounts to see their collections growing as fast as possible - just to show "mine is bigger". Those guys buy everything - fakes, repro-stuff and so on - cause they simply don’t know what’s the real deal.

And all this mirrors those auctions. The seller might know about this card being a TT, but don’t mention it. The experienced collectors are out - so the price don’t get as high as if this were genuine MOCs - but some newbies see their chance to get their hand on a rare item - and hey, it’s graded - so it must be OK. :(
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Richard_H » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:18 pm

Many thanks for that excellent explanation. That I believe is also true of forums in other countries too hence why some newer collectors do not believe the TT scandal to exist at all. :shock:
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby stormcab » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:38 pm

spoons wrote:How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times


Isn't it because it's getting to the point now that if you took a figure off a TT, that the brand new figure, weapon, and pristine cardback will be close to that value?

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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ScruffyLookingNH » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Really interesting summary, Plastikheld, thanks for taking the time to post it.

It highlights a couple of really quite interesting points in respect of TT and the spread of knowledge, understanding and acceptance of the facts. It sounds like some collectors are still stuck in the "denial" stage of grief! I saw my first TT disbeliever on a FB thread about 6 months ago. Clearly as ignorant as a hoard of Daily Mail journalists and not willing to accept the fact this happened. I don't think he was trolling, just stupid.

It would be really interesting to try and re-establish the old skool web-ring of forums. Maybe a sticky on each of the member-forums with a thread of banners and a short bio of each of the forums. The list would probably be depressingly short nowadays.

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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby spoons » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:59 pm

stormcab wrote:
spoons wrote:How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times


Isn't it because it's getting to the point now that if you took a figure off a TT, that the brand new figure, weapon, and pristine cardback will be close to that value?


Not a Han Hoth. £20 tops for the figure, and can't see anyone paying £250 for a relatively common GM card back.

The last Meccano Han Hoth cardback sold for about £300 and they are rare.

Agree plastikhelds take on the German situation is interesting and saddening. There are so many chancers in this hobby it's depressing.

I suspect we'll see the cycle starting again where we are now the equivalent of the 90s collectors that knew all about Toni, and where that knowledge gets forgotten over time. In 10 years time I hope we are all still collecting to keep the message out there.
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:44 pm

Hi there, that's my Palitoy guide you are quoting.

The back pressing on the back of the card round the bubble area isn't a great tell on its own. Some Toni's have a bit of pressing, some factory seals don't.

The key here is that the genuine factory bubble is tri-logo style and the one used here is the rectangular bubble that Toni used.

So in summary, it's a Toni.

Cheers Jason

Per-Anders wrote:Hi!

This is my first post here, but I hope someone would be able to help me clarify this...

I have been offered this awesome Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) MOC. Seller says it's not a TT item even though I have presented him the below text.

“Toni used the wrong bubble for Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear). The genuine example on the left uses a Tri-Logo style bubble with rounded corners with square corners on the back plate. You can see the square corners left in the imprint in the used cardback in the middle. The Toni on the right uses a rectangular bubble with square corners and rounded corners on the back plate.”

Source: http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

He says that it is possible to see the factory pressing from the machine mounting the bubble and that some well-known collectors has verified it as genuine...

Any comments to this? :roll:

Thanks!

Best Regards, Per-Anders.
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:48 pm

Plastikheld wrote:
ScruffyLookingNH wrote:It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway?


As far as I’m located in Germany I would like to write down my point of view.
Please excuse my spelling and formulations, but I will do my best to explain and I hope anybody will understand what I mean.

Yes, we do have an equivalent for SWFUK in Germany called „lichtgeschwindigkeit.de“ (whicht means „lightspeed“). For a long time it was a good running forum, with many experienced collectors. But after some personal disputes and the upcoming of facebook, many of the experienced collectors have left the forum (and joined the FB groups)and there is no longer a collecting community comparable to what you have with SWFUK. That’s the reason why I also joined this wonderful forum, but my home is still LG, where I’m a long time member and well known collector (I think/hope) :wink: .

The TT topic seems to be a kind of taboo, cause also over here many collectors have spent (and lost) a lot of money in buying TTs over the years. Especially the german cards, of course. So when the Toy Tony scandal popped up, we had some guys, like Wolff (wbobafett), who tried to help getting the mystery solved.

Some collectors wanted to get rid a fast as possible of their TT MOCs, but most of them kept them in silence. Sadly the german community is full of greed and „dick-comparison-contests“ (don’t know, if this term is used in english - means to prove that one collection is better than the other).

As a result of this, the experienced collectors educated theirself - but did not spread the word and kept their knowledge shut. So nowadays I often see the newbies or those whose english skills are not that far to join the international community are simply don’t know what the TT scandal really was about or where to educate theirself (don’t kow how often I referred to Jasons page, but I think it did not helped a lot).

Sadly the newer colltectors are often willing to invest large amounts to see their collections growing as fast as possible - just to show "mine is bigger". Those guys buy everything - fakes, repro-stuff and so on - cause they simply don’t know what’s the real deal.

And all this mirrors those auctions. The seller might know about this card being a TT, but don’t mention it. The experienced collectors are out - so the price don’t get as high as if this were genuine MOCs - but some newbies see their chance to get their hand on a rare item - and hey, it’s graded - so it must be OK. :(


Ive added pages to my Palitoy guide for the German card types in the last year or so. So hopefully that will help German collectors looking for information.

I've tried several times to get Wolfgang to update his German ESB figures guide, alas with no success.

Cheers Jason
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Re: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Plastikheld » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:04 pm

mr_palitoy wrote:Ive added pages to my Palitoy guide for the German card types in the last year or so. So hopefully that will help German collectors looking for information.
Yeah, that's my no. 1 source of information and I'm very thankful for your work and time you spent on updating your important guide.
Think I can speak/write here for many other german collectors.
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