The damage lighter fluid does on vintage MOC's and packaging

For those on RS and Facebook, this may be a bit repetitive. However, the awareness component is important to the preservation of vintage toys - so much that I feel we will all need to do our part to stamp out these methods of "reconditioning" before it's too late.

Below, I will link one of the quotes from a recent article (part 2 in a series), and would appreciate comments, discussion or even just sharing of the article to help inform collectors of the kind of things being done to vintage items. For continuity, below the link from Part 2, I will include a link to Part 1 as well.

Stephen Ward - UKG from the article:
Part 2: Disclosure, Reconditioning and Willful Blindness - The Toygraders Ring-In
"Yes we are well aware of these substances lighter fluid is awful stuff and in my opinion should never be used for anything other than it's purpose."

Link to the first part:
Disclosure, Reconditioning and Willful Blindness - Part 1

- Joe

i think price stickers should remain on moc's it adds history to the piece.

Yeah, never really been bothered by price stickers. Ok, if there are 5 or 6 on it then maybe, if it's one or even two, so what!?

I may not be totally understanding what was said above but I've used lighter fluid from time to time to clean up sticker residue and never had a problem with it effecting the card. Is this what's being said or does it mean taking price stickers off?

I for one have never been a fan of price stickers on my hardbacks but do understand that there's history there. When I've had them on my Palitoy reseals I've always taken them off of the front and then reattached them to the back of the card, keeps the history and me happy

Ian

Palifan said:

I may not be totally understanding what was said above but I've used lighter fluid from time to time to clean up sticker residue and never had a problem with it effecting the card. Is this what's being said or does it mean taking price stickers off?

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I have had regular communication with both a museum trained paper conservationist and Master Bookbinder. Both unanimously agree Naphtha, lighter fluid, goo gone, or any petroleum derivative is bad news, and should never come into contact with any paper of any kind. Below is a quote from an email response I received from a Master Bookbinder whose resume includes restoring antiquarian books (some as old as the 10th Century) to near original condition as well as making his own hand-made paper, asking his opinion on exposing paper to Naphtha/lighter fluid or goo gone (note the quote below was taken from Part 1 of the series of articles I linked above):

Any chemical treatment will break down the cellulose in paper causing it to first become chalky, then brittle and then disintegrate.

Naphtha is a derivative of petroleum and is used as a blending agent for high octane gasoline among its many uses....needless to say any idiot using it on paper to remove glue/gum, is just that.....an idiot.....The problem is that any short term solution that the seller uses is going to create a long term problem for the buyer with dire consequences.

I wouldn't consider the use of these chemicals as restoration or conservation, I would consider it amateur attempts with fatal effects. New Zealand authorities a few years ago banned all conservators from using chemical treatments as the years of use had shown that their very short history on paper is now disintegrating....,.,they were ordered to just make clamshell boxes to house their precious artifacts. Anyone who uses Naphtha on paper should be considered a vandal and collectors should not invest in such treated items......I think the term is "buyer beware".

Regrettably, there are a lot of things that are done, and people continue to do, to recondition vintage toys. In addition to the way petroleum distillates break down the chemical composition of papers, there is the double threat of the volatile organic compounds (VOC's) becoming a part of the paper composition, and acting as a trigger to blister yellowing. I was hoping the articles above would explain these points well enough, though I have no problem repeating these concerns. Hopefully with awareness, people will stop using these harmful chemicals on vintage toy packaging.

In my opinion it's pretty simple."JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE ".
Stickers add a bit of charecter.

It's interesting that the above statements mention paper which makes me wonder if lighter fluid would have the same effect on the semi gloss print that is on top of the paper on card backs.

I guess in years to come we'll find out.

Ian

As someone who has bought and subsequently cleaned up a lot of old, dusty and sometimes downright scummy vintage SW boxed items in my time, I have to say the outer glossy litho is incredibly resilient. It is pretty much 'wipe clean'.

It is truely amazing as I have used goo-gone and lighter fluid on items in my collection...some of them had this done back in the early 90's...no sign of turning to dust as of yet..or signs of damage.


Been using spray starch also for around 10 years and..the boxes have not turned to goo or a pile of ashes either. Facinating stuff there.

It's funny how the practices that were once considered "the norm" are starting to become a little frowned on from a preservation point of view. I guess it was inevitable really as the toys we love get older, collectors become more mature/wiser and we start to think more about the long term impact of cleaning and restoration.

When I started collecting it was quite common for people to remove price stickers and do other similar "restoration" jobs. I'm sure you'll find plenty of threads on it on the forums from years back. Most collectors just preferred clean looking cards, there was no real interest in price stickers at the time..they were considered ugly!

Pulling bubble dents out with tape, goo gone/lighter fluid on stickers, using baby wipes to clean cards or even random stuff like polishing the dullness out of bubbles. It was almost encouraged at one point, everyone was doing it.

A good example of how things change: About 10 years ago I remember reading an article on toyfixer.com (I think it went by a different name back then) about how to polish the bubbles on carded figures using a compound sold by a company called "Tamiya".

This intrigued me quite a bit because I had a sizeable collection of carded figures at the time (well..for a 20 year old at least) and I thought they would appreciate a good "clean". I ordered a set of the polishing compounds thinking it was worth a try (I had plenty of figures that looked a bit scuffed and old).

I probably used that product on maybe 30-35 figures and while it did work, I never even really looked into what I was using ( ). All I knew was that it was often used in other hobbies (model airplanes/cars etc) so I just figured it was safe. I guess I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time because the figures were mine and I also never intended to sell them..famous last words!

A couple of years later I sold up of course and off they went to eBay. I never disclosed the fact that I had used that polishing product on the bubbles when I sold them. It didn't even enter my head to do so if I am honest.

I've no idea how that product holds up over time or what the long term effect actually is on the plastic it comes into contact with. I'd like to think that it was safe and I didn't do any thing that couldn't be reversed or was damaging but I honestly have no idea.

In my defence, I did publicly post on RS that I was planning on polishing the bubbles on my carded figures before I did it and nobody even replied to the thread! I guess if someone were to ask a similar question now they would be asked all kinds of questions - if it was safe, had they researched it..what the long term effects were etc etc

Like I said, different times and a totally different mindset. Discussions about long term preservation weren't common at all and we all seemingly lived for the now and did what we thought was best at the time with no real thought to the future.

As with anything in life, you learn from your mistakes. I'd certainly never touch a product like that nowadays (even if it seemed safe) nor would I remove a price sticker from a card. The success rate of sticker removal never seemed very high to me and even those that got good at it would eventually **** one up at some point or another - that's when you think "I should have left it well alone".

There is a fine line between cleaning and restoration and it's quite often blurred by collectors. Some of the practices we've seen used in this hobby probably should be disclosed, many aren't of course but it's not always intentional or an attempt to deceive people - sometimes people just think they are doing a good thing to their toys or aren't really thinking that far ahead. (The craze of whitening stormies with harsh chemicals comes to mind!!)

I think when we start nit picking packaging for being cleaned or the fact someone took a wet wipe to it...we truely have become anal and have been sucked up our own assholes. My opinion of course.

So do I disclose that back in 1998...I actually took a paper towel with goo-gone on it and wiped the front of a card?? There is a limit to what I consider restoration...and I think that may be the limit. For **** sakes.


I think I may have actually been eating a donut the last time I held one of my vehicles boxes...better call the police. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sorry ...but While using peroxide and bleach on figures is one thing...taking a can of furniture polish and wiping down your boxes is another. Get a grip.

Haha! :lol:

Well, there are definitely things that don't warrant "full disclosure" and some that do. I remember getting a bit of a telling off one time on RS for using a baby wipe on a card because of a fear of a long term risk due to the "harmful" chemicals that some baby wipes contain..

Sure some of the stuff people get upset about nowadays is a bit over the top but at the same time I kind of wish that 10-15 years ago people were thinking about the future a little more and maybe hadn't done some of the things they did to make toy packaging look better (the black ink period was truly awful I think you'll agree!)

The day we have to disclose the possibility that at some point or another we may have held a toy with dirty hands will be the day things have gone too far

Joe. I have been collecting since around 1992. I have used goo-gone, I have used furniture polish, I have used spray starch. I have items in my collection that had these chemicals used on them over 15 years ago. Now I am not saying in another 100 years that the results from my insane use of these chemicals may not have an effect ( I will be dead and the bubbles will have fallen off, mind you), but I can say without a doubt that the items that recieved the cleaning are in the same shape they were back then. Hell I used armour-all on my figures to make them shine...and they took a bath with me prior to that...so...maybe I should tell a potential buyer that.

As you know I am big advocate against other things, but for me...this is ****ing stupid.


Now If you were to say...dump the whole bottle of goo-gone on a cardback...then yes..it will **** it up.

tiefighterboy said:

I think when we start nit picking packaging for being cleaned or the fact someone took a wet wipe to it...we truely have become anal and have been sucked up our own assholes. My opinion of course.

So do I disclose that back in 1998...I actually took a paper towel with goo-gone on it and wiped the front of a card?? There is a limit to what I consider restoration...and I think that may be the limit. For **** sakes.


I think I may have actually been eating a donut the last time I held one of my vehicles boxes...better call the police. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sorry ...but While using peroxide and bleach on figures is one thing...taking a can of furniture polish and wiping down your boxes is another. Get a grip.

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Well said.....

Time to draw a line in the sand!

Restoration is carried out on old antiques, not to make them look pristine and new.
There is a world of difference between restorative practices, and damaging a box or MOC or card.
There are many boxes for example that , if not restored sympathetically and with due care ( and I add research prior to doing it) would end up in such a bad state, they would be lost forever, surely it is better to rescue them.

As far as price tags are concerned its a moot point, and one of personal choice, for me either way is fine, and removing residue from where a price tag has been.

Bonsai_Tree_Ent said:

As someone who has bought and subsequently cleaned up a lot of old, dusty and sometimes downright scummy vintage SW boxed items in my time, I have to say the outer glossy litho is incredibly resilient. It is pretty much 'wipe clean'.

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Yep, agree with that.

If you drench the box in whatever, yes, it will damage it, but as was previously proved in my thread about warped boxes, a little goes a long way.

I've seen the damage done to card using excessive amounts of lighter fluid, it stains and it will never come out, but a small liberal amount will do the job nicely.

Price tags, when situated properly on a card or box look bloody cool and IMO should be left, there's something very heartwarming about seeing a £4.45 price tag featuring the shop logo from where it was purchased on a Palitoy Landspeeder

Box and card restoration in this hobby is fine, and I would never think of disclosing the fact I used furniture polish on a box, like Todd said, we've gone too far at that point.

For me. restoration is when I actaully remove something (Other than the price tag)..refinish or replace something or repair. I hardly call me wiping off a cardback with a wipe restoration, nor do I call removal a price tag that either.

Actually even using the spray starch or wet spray for flattening of boxes does not fall under restoration to me, but I am sure someone will split that hair. :lol:

I now await a four paragraph response as to why baby wipes kill boxes.

@Joe_O - I think with everything in life, we evolve with tastes/preferences. E Gerber, who is a name associated to "preservation" and "conservation", supplying the comic hobby with archival grade storage supplies had an ad running in the mid-80's which offered a service to "spruce-up" old comics, which included pressing and trimming for that "extra new appearance":



It's a shocking think to think they were associated to a practice that is very heavily frowned-upon, and has been for as long as I can remember, but then who knew this stuff would be worth as much as it's commanding?

@Bonsai - the graphic layer on the cards can in fact react with the inks. Not visible with the naked eye, but there are usually ways to tell if a price sticker was removed. You often hear people saying there is a dull, opaque appearance on the area, and it's not to do with the sticker, but more to do with the reaction between the chemical, the paper and the inks. It's also an indicator that absorption has occurred. Another thing to consider is that botched sticker removal may leave an area lifted or with slight peeling. Regardless, the lame-brained idea of someone masking a partial or badly botched removal job with a vintage sticker, only to have the new owner rinse/repeat the lighter fluid "practice" will only ensure things will get messier as the chain of ownership changes. This latter point could be expanded to cover the "extra new appearance" suggestion of using lighter fluid to remove colour touch or ink touch ups.

Well my sticker removal process did manage to get pass the AFA with no problem :lol:

Why would you think it wouldn't? They're doing it themselves.

Palifan said:

Well my sticker removal process did manage to get pass the AFA with no problem :lol:

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Did the card disintegrate after you removed the sticker?