Header image

Reproduction Weapons

Discuss vintage Kenner and Palitoy Star Wars toys from the 1977-1985 era.
tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:16 pm

Complete means having the necessary/appropriate parts. You are trying to change a defintion that isn't changeable. A vintage figure with the right vintage weapon/accessory is complete. A vintage figure with a repro weapon is not. You can write 'complete' next to it but that is a misuse of the word. A Star Wars figure is only complete if all components are vintage. Very few classic cars have 100% original parts, some do though, and they are the most prized as they are nearest to factory spec. If one stamp in a collection of a hundred is a photocopy, is it still a complete collection? No, it's 99% complete with a photocopy. In all my time collecting, I have never heard the definition of a complete figure to be anything other than: the original figure complete with all original accessories. I've never once seen this be open to interpretation.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:26 pm

Very few classic cars have 100% original parts, some do though


Really!!!? 100%!!!? I'm doubtful. To be functional and road worthy in 2018 that vintage car will have had some part changed or modified to comply with modern driving standards and safety regulations. It could even just be the smallest 'nut or bolt' and then by your definition of 'complete' there are no 'complete' vintage cars out there in existence. At some point over the years that vintage car would have been taken to a garage and had something replaced or changed. It is no longer 'complete'.
Going even further with your argument and taking it back to vintage star wars figures; is a figure that is a beater with paint rubs really complete? After all, paint that was part of the figure when it came out of the factory is no longer a part of that figure. So even if it has the original weapon, it must still be in your definition 'not complete'.

tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:36 pm

Cars of course by their nature require a lot more changes than a vintage figure ever will. Members of classic car clubs are fastidious in changing parts out for genuine old stock, the goal is to keep everything as original as is possible. I concede this was a poor parallel, my apologies. With loose Star Wars though, I think there is a consideration to be made for two factors, Condition and State of Completion. If you have for example a Han Solo Bespin figure with his original vintage weapon, then that figure is complete, regardless of any paint that may have worn off the figure. He is however, on a Condition level, imperfect. Same as a vintage book. If it has all the pages, but the cover is beaten, the book is still complete but imperfect. If it is missing a page, it isn't complete. If the page has been photocopied from another copy and stuck in, the text itself may be complete, but it's presented form is not. For me, completion and condition are not the same thing.

User avatar
Stubbs
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Stubbs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:40 pm

This is not a vintage car its a star wars figure and the 2 require a very different mentality as a car wont even move without a great number of parts to make it operate i cant see a comparison.

There is no justification for reproduction weapons its a lazy mans collection. No effort in obtaining the pieces they want other than a buy it now on ebay for £1 great effort. I cant imagine the feeling you get to complete the figure with a buy it now £1 click on ebay some people are easily satisfied id rather go a year with nothing and save for 1 figure i need and appreciate it.

It's not like you couldn't flip these items for the same if not more the increase in value has gone stupid i just dont understand these arguments.

tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:55 pm

I'm simply supporting an earlier comment that complete is a statement of fact when it comes to Star Wars, it isn't open for interpretation. We know which toys were released and what each toy came with, essentially what the complete form looked like. You either have the figure/vehicle/play-set complete, or you don't.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:00 pm

This is not a vintage car its a star wars figure and the 2 require a very different mentality as a car wont even move without a great number of parts to make it operate i cant see a comparison.


Well there is a comparison if you want the definition of 'complete' to include all the 'original' parts. Of course a star wars figure cannot be compared to a vintage car! It's the definition that is being compared, not the object.

Using the term; 'lazy mans collection' is not helpful when describing the collection habits of people who don't have the funds or time to search out genuine vintage parts for their figure. They are every bit a valuable member of the collecting community as anyone else. Having an opinion on repro is fine and not wanting any of it in one's collection is fine. But i'd like to encourage more people into the community rather than turn people away or judge them because they buy repro. Tackle the problem of repro by going after the people who try to pass it off as real and educating everyone in the community as to what is genuine and what is fake. At the end of the day collect how you want and most important of all enjoy it.
Last edited by Scouttroper74 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:08 pm

I'm simply supporting an earlier comment that complete is a statement of fact when it comes to Star Wars, it isn't open for interpretation. We know which toys were released and what each toy came with, essentially what the complete form looked like. You either have the figure/vehicle/play-set complete, or you don't.


The definition of what is 'complete' is in fact open to interpretation. What you are arguing for is the definition of a 'complete' VINTAGE figure. If you are stating that a 'complete' VINTAGE figure is only complete Vintage if it has its original accessory then I actually agree.

tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:28 pm

I am indeed arguing this in the specific case of vintage Star Wars. I agree that in other cases, complete could be more open...
I think your last point is really interesting. Anyone should be welcome to collect, on any budget. For those starting out, or not able to purchase originals, would it not be better to kit out your figs with modern Star Wars accessories, and as many of the seasoned posters here council, be patient and collect original vintage gradually. A complete line might take decades to get, but if you love it, then that's the charm. I see thousands of POTF2, Saga Collection and other modern stuff at car boots/fairs/charity shops for pennies.

This way, you get a temporary display accessory while you search out originals, and repro makers don't get any money. You also end up with genuine Star War accessories, which even though modern can be sold on later. I completely understand that some collectors on a budget really want the weapon to look as close to original as possible, but if you feel that strongly, you should save and get the original. I think that's the bit that hurts us all the most. It's the same love for Star Wars that makes people buy repro as makes us buy original. It just has the horrible side effect of damaging the community overall.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:37 pm

It's the same love for Star Wars that makes people buy repro as makes us buy original.


Exactly! That's why I don't want more seasoned collectors such as ourselves to look down on people who buy repro. Hate the people who try to pass it off as genuine and not the people who buy because they are passionate about Star Wars and collecting Vintage Star Wars. For them it will 'complete' their figure. For others like us, it will not. Repros are most likely here to stay. Most of them up to 2015 have been very easy for the seasoned collector to spot. However, i'm more worried about the recent batch of Imperial, Rebel and Leia blasters that are extremely close to the originals.

tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:58 pm

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't look down on people who buy repro. I resent the fact that their eagerness to collect destroys something I've loved for a long time. If you truly love collecting these old toys, there shouldn't be a time frame. There are always going to be new collectors who get duped, and that sucks. I think that if you seriously collect anything, you have to read as much as you can to educate yourself and the modern internet is truly great for this. I think the more worrying trait is collectors who knowingly buy repro and don't care. This coupled with the ever better forgeries you mentioned only makes things worse. I think it's also the reason a lot of collectors are dropping such huge sums for tiny weapons and accessories, they feel it's now or never, and are honestly just so sick and tired of the endless fakes that they will pay any cost to get what they want.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:19 pm

Personally, I don't resent anyone who collects and has a passion for Star Wars, whether they buy vintage weapons or knowingly buy repro. Life is too short for resentment. The only people i would really resent are the people who pass off fake weapons as genuine.

User avatar
Stubbs
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Stubbs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:51 pm

This argument will be around for ever. There has been many polls on reproduction weapons on this forum and the many do not support it me included you cannot sell repro here i believe you cannot sell repro on any of the recognised facebook pages i am not a member so unsure. Also you cannot grade repro items so alarm bells should be ringing here its despised by many collectors who love original star wars toys and dont want it watered down with this crap.

User avatar
Scouttroper74
New User
New User
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Scouttroper74 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:59 pm

This argument will be around for ever. There has been many polls on reproduction weapons on this forum and the many do not support it me included you cannot sell repro here i believe you cannot sell repro on any of the recognised facebook pages i am not a member so unsure. Also you cannot grade repro items so alarm bells should be ringing here its despised by many collectors who love original star wars toys and dont want it watered down with this crap.


Who exactly is it that is advocating selling repro here or on the FB forums? I'm certainly not. But I don't think we can shoot down anyone who simply has an opinion on the matter of repro! There are also many collectors who love Original Star Wars toys who do want it. Just a fact of collecting. Not such a hot issue in any other sphere of Toy collecting.

On the issue of grading, i despise it and think its detremental to the hobby. But again each to their own. If you like graded figures, I say all the more power to you!

tobeshadow
New User
New User
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby tobeshadow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:12 pm

I'm not really clear, for whom should these alarm bells be ringing exactly? We're simply having a discussion about the place of repro in modern collecting. I'm well aware of the opinions of the many on this forum...I share them...it's why I've joined :)

User avatar
Stubbs
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Reproduction Weapons

Postby Stubbs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:25 pm

tobeshadow wrote:I'm not really clear, for whom should these alarm bells be ringing exactly? We're simply having a discussion about the place of repro in modern collecting. I'm well aware of the opinions of the many on this forum...I share them...it's why I've joined :)



Alarm bells should be ringing to collectors coming collecting vintage star wars world where these reproductions are not aloud in the area's i represented . I do not wish to get into a full on debate with you guys as i do not know you personally but do disagree on the repro issue.


Return to “Vintage Collecting Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lejackal, Michael Sith, x-wingMark and 5 guests