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ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Discuss vintage Kenner and Palitoy Star Wars toys from the 1977-1985 era.
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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby edd_jedi » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:46 pm

I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure even back then they would not have got away with printing one COO on the card and having a figure with a different COO packaged on to it. As you say could well be a different HK factory, we know there were a couple. But that doesn't make it a Spanish figure.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:02 pm

edd_jedi wrote:I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure even back then they would not have got away with printing one COO on the card and having a figure with a different COO packaged on to it. As you say could well be a different HK factory, we know there were a couple. But that doesn't make it a Spanish figure.


Not true, for example many trilogo MOC Biker Scouts & ATST drivers are Taiwan figures on 'HK' cards, tri Jawa card says Taiwan not a Taiwan figure, Droids Fett is either Hong Kong or Taiwan Fett- always a Taiwan card. Palitoy imported ALL their figures not sure why you would think some (many) did not come from Spain. You will not find 'PBP' figures (Spanish produced) on 'Kenner' Hong Kong cards.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Pomse2001 wrote:
like some stormtroopers have been found on kenner cards with a pbp body and kenner legs and arms.


I would like to see that

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Pomse2001 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:51 pm

aussiejames wrote:
Pomse2001 wrote:
like some stormtroopers have been found on kenner cards with a pbp body and kenner legs and arms.


I would like to see that


Sure, always glad to help, I found it in a huge lot of moc here in denmark in 2013. The body is hard plastic, arms and legs are soft plastic.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Pomse2001 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:56 pm

aussiejames wrote:
edd_jedi wrote:I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure even back then they would not have got away with printing one COO on the card and having a figure with a different COO packaged on to it. As you say could well be a different HK factory, we know there were a couple. But that doesn't make it a Spanish figure.


Not true, for example many trilogo MOC Biker Scouts & ATST drivers are Taiwan figures on 'HK' cards, tri Jawa card says Taiwan not a Taiwan figure, Droids Fett is either Hong Kong or Taiwan Fett- always a Taiwan card. Palitoy imported ALL their figures not sure why you would think some (many) did not come from Spain. You will not find 'PBP' figures (Spanish produced) on 'Kenner' Hong Kong cards.


I agree, I have found some childhood lots with cardbacks and figures in denmark where coo was Taiwan and the card was HK etc. etc.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby edd_jedi » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:03 pm

aussiejames wrote:Not true, for example many trilogo MOC Biker Scouts & ATST drivers are Taiwan figures on 'HK' cards, tri Jawa card says Taiwan not a Taiwan figure, Droids Fett is either Hong Kong or Taiwan Fett- always a Taiwan card. Palitoy imported ALL their figures not sure why you would think some (many) did not come from Spain. You will not find 'PBP' figures (Spanish produced) on 'Kenner' Hong Kong cards.


I guess by the end of the line they were throwing any combination of figure/bubble/card together, but I still imagine it was the exception rather than the rule. I'm sure generally the COO on the figure will match the card, especially on earlier MOCs.

You say Palitoy imported all their figures, didn't every country? America certainly didn't make any themselves. I acknowledge there are a few Spanish made figures like the Greedo I mentioned, but the vast majority were made in HK/China/Taiwan etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen stacks of evidence that many figures were MADE in Spain, finding a few scarred COO figures in Spanish childhood collections is not conclusive proof IMO.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby laurencedyer » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:57 am

I don't agree with the whole variant specific to a country theory. Kenner probably had different factories making figures that would be intended to supply specific countries hence why regular COO's are found on figures more often in one country than an other, giving reasoning to term that style of figure moulding to a specific country.

My belief is that as and when demand was required by different countries, Kenner would redirect the figures from other factories regardless to the intended destination to keep feeding the hot markets. Which factory in which country the figures would have been made in would have been irrelevant to keep the supply flowing to the hot markets in the aim of maximising profits through sale.

The four baggies and the two carded figures below all came from the Coalville factory and were part of my C3P0 case find.

The Han Bespin is a no coo variant which is regarded as a Ledy. TIG have it classified as a Kenner/Ledy figure. This was in a Palitoy Q Made in China baggie which assisted to determine the actual coo for it to a coo / variant hunter with a Han Bespin focus. He told me that the early releases were all Hong Kong figures and that the no coo / Ledy Han Bespins had not been seen in a baggie before although the PBP found in Meccano baggies. This actual figure to baggie classification is so far the only one observed and documented but was clearly bagged in the Far East for supply to Coalville and the UK market. To play devils advocate you could speculate due to no ledy's being found in a baggie that the no coo variant was made and sent to the UK, opened for carding and then redirected to a Ledy factory. I am only playing of cause but adds foundation to my beliefs.

The next three baggies, Ackbar, Bib & Ree Yees are in Kenner ROTJ-h baggies. Until the find these three figures in that specific baggie classification had not previously been documented. Just one other example of figures initially destined for one market sent to another, presumably to meet demand.

Both the Kenner 77 back & Trlilogo Emperor carded figures were from the same find and direct from Palitoy. One more example of stock redirected when required.

There are many more examples such as these, just 4 items from the same batch that are contrary to the accepted belief.

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Trilogo Emperor CB.jpg
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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Hod10 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:59 am

Yep, hard to find solid evidence of this particular Bossk being made in Spain. The earliest mint on card samples of this figure are the late 1982 Palitoy ESB 45b carded. One quick search on the web and a big lips Bossk can be found on the Mr Palitoy cardback guide as a legit example that was sold via Vectis, they are everywhere. I don't know enough about the no COO variant world but in a lot of cases it appears fairly common to be thought many were manufactured in Macau or the like and then basically considered European. Very confusing as to what is what
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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:38 am

That Han Bespin baggie is NOT a Ledy- it is made in China ( as the baggie says) Ledy latter used that mould to make the Ledy Han bespin- with slightly different plastic colour. Ledy also did this with Lando bespin, Leia bespin, Zuckuss, Luke Bespin ( probably missed some) those are all China stamped or found on China cardbacks/baggies. We do seem to agree that Palitoy ordered loose figures ( baggies) from 'Kenner' that order was filled by which ever factory that could do it at the time. (Taiwan, China, one or two of the Hong Kong plants & Spain)
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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:41 am

'Most' countries imported items ready for retail (packaged already) ie. Americans bought MOCs directly from the overseas factories. UK kids got MOCs assembled in the Palitoy factory - assembled with imported loose figures from the various manufacturers ( probably sent in baggies for Palitoy's specific orders and the reason why Palitoy baggies exist ) ESB 41 back and earlier (the earlier MOCs) figures were 'only' from the 3 Hong Kong factories- they had there own moulds for every figure. The only exception is Taiwan did produce 5 SW figures ( Leia , Luke, Chew, Vader & R2)in the SW era only. Then just before ROTJ new factories/countries also injected/made figures. Macau (which did a lot of mini rigs as well), the Kader Hong Kong factory outsourced to China, Spain had been importing figure parts(torsos, heads, limbs) & assembling & painting- the 'POCH' figures. They then got moulds for each figure from one of the Hong Kong factories and 'altered' the mould to remove the CoO (add material to the mould- hence the 'scar' /removed plastic where the CoO should be) The PBP book has a lengthy interview with PBP employees discussing the injection process of figures in Spain , which explains the different plastic that Spain used. I have no doubt 'all' SW & ESB loose figures have a 'variant' made in Spain ( & Biker Scout) Macau & China removed material from the moulds hence those figures have 'extra plastic' a raised bar or smooth/melted where the CoO was. Taiwan produced a select few ROTJ figures with their own moulds. Mexico used various moulds from China, & the two remaining Hong Kong factories ( & Spain!)and they did not even bother to remove the CoO, so some of their figures made in Mexico say made in China or Hong Kong! They also had there own moulds for the 13 figures found on Mexican Kenner MOCs. Hong Kong stopped putting Hong Kong on their moulds for the last 30 figures produced. ie. the last few waves of figures (inc last17) that were made in Hong Kong are no CoO. The 3 HK factories ( Smile ,Unitoy ,Kader ) had made ' every' ESB figure prior to ROTJ release , they produced those ESB figures for ROTJ cards as well except instead of all 3 Hong Kong factories making them only two did ( HN,HT,HG). The one HK factory that did not get to produce that particular ESB figure for a ROTJ card is because their mould had been used/altered by either Macau, Mexico & Spain. The moulds are often unique- so you can usually tell which variant it is (mould family) even when MOC. ie. Moulded leg Han Hoth mould has the 6 sided belt buckle- that mould was used & altered by PBP. Big copyright, big right thumb mould was used & altered by China.... Pomse look at the belt of your Stormtrooper MOC. The belt has a big hump, little hump, big hump, little hump all the way around. That is NOT a PBP torso ( it is hard torso thou) PBP & Ledy Stormtrooper mould for belt is big hump- flat bit, big hump, flat bit....

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Hod10 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:30 am

aussiejames wrote:'Most' countries imported items ready for retail (packaged already) ie. Americans bought MOCs directly from the overseas factories. UK kids got MOCs assembled in the Palitoy factory - assembled with imported loose figures from the various manufacturers ( probably sent in baggies for Palitoy's specific orders and the reason why Palitoy baggies exist ) ESB 41 back and earlier (the earlier MOCs) figures were 'only' from the 3 Hong Kong factories- they had there own moulds for every figure. The only exception is Taiwan did produce 5 SW figures ( Leia , Luke, Chew, Vader & R2)in the SW era only. Then just before ROTJ new factories/countries also injected/made figures. Macau (which did a lot of mini rigs as well), the Kader Hong Kong factory outsourced to China, Spain had been importing figure parts(torsos, heads, limbs) & assembling & painting- the 'POCH' figures. They then got moulds for each figure from one of the Hong Kong factories and 'altered' the mould to remove the CoO (add material to the mould- hence the 'scar' /removed plastic where the CoO should be) The PBP book has a lengthy interview with PBP employees discussing the injection process of figures in Spain , which explains the different plastic that Spain used. I have no doubt 'all' SW & ESB loose figures have a 'variant' made in Spain ( & Biker Scout) Macau & China removed material from the moulds hence those figures have 'extra plastic' a raised bar or smooth/melted where the CoO was. Taiwan produced a select few ROTJ figures with their own moulds. Mexico used various moulds from China, & the two remaining Hong Kong factories ( & Spain!)and they did not even bother to remove the CoO, so some of their figures made in Mexico say made in China or Hong Kong! They also had there own moulds for the 13 figures found on Mexican Kenner MOCs. Hong Kong stopped putting Hong Kong on their moulds for the last 30 figures produced. ie. the last few waves of figures (inc last17) that were made in Hong Kong are no CoO. The 3 HK factories ( Smile ,Unitoy ,Kader ) had made ' every' ESB figure prior to ROTJ release , they produced those ESB figures for ROTJ cards as well except instead of all 3 Hong Kong factories making them only two did ( HN,HT,HG). The one HK factory that did not get to produce that particular ESB figure for a ROTJ card is because their mould had been used/altered by either Macau, Mexico & Spain. The moulds are often unique- so you can usually tell which variant it is (mould family) even when MOC. ie. Moulded leg Han Hoth mould has the 6 sided belt buckle- that mould was used & altered by PBP. Big copyright, big right thumb mould was used & altered by China.... Pomse look at the belt of your Stormtrooper MOC. The belt has a big hump, little hump, big hump, little hump all the way around. That is NOT a PBP torso ( it is hard torso thou) PBP & Ledy Stormtrooper mould for belt is big hump- flat bit, big hump, flat bit....


Very insightful. Could I ask what would be your hunch on the manufacture origin of the Palitoy ESB carded fat lips Bossk?

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 am

Fat lips Bossk (no CoO) is a 'mould family' all to itself (similar to PBP Biker Scout & Disco boots Death Squad Commander) IMO it is a Spanish produced figure.


Image

Taiwan figure & blaster on 45 back HK card
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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Hod10 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:53 am

aussiejames wrote:Fat lips Bossk (no CoO) is a 'mould family' all to itself (similar to PBP Biker Scout & Disco boots Death Squad Commander) IMO it is a Spanish produced figure.


Cheers for that, appreciate the help.

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby aussiejames » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Image

The hard torso Snowtrooper that is not PBP( often incorrectly called 'painted' ) is also found on the 77 back- same punch hole as the Stormtrooper Lars has. Image

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=994508

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Re: ESB Palitoy / PBP Bossk Figure

Postby Pomse2001 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:52 pm

aussiejames wrote:
The hard torso Snowtrooper that is not PBP( often incorrectly called 'painted' ) is also found on the 77 back- same punch hole as the Stormtrooper Lars has.

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=994508


Wow thanks james for the info, I think I have to look at my hoth stormies again. I have never noticed that variant of hoth stormtroopers. Any idea why hoth stormie and stormie can both be found on kenner 77 back with hard torso and soft arms and legs ? :? could there be other figures on 77 back with mixed arms, legs and torso ? :?


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