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The day is coming....repro MOC

Discuss vintage Kenner and Palitoy Star Wars toys from the 1977-1985 era.
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_Lee_
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The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby _Lee_ » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:03 pm

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed before but i was just having a little delve into it.

I just wanted to do a wee test over the past few weeks and i bought one of these kits from Mr Poon as i was buying something from him anyway:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-W ... SwlMFZJuKI

I also bought a card kit from Beggars canyon toys just to see how good these actually are. Now ive been collecting for a long time and have had hundreds of MOCs pass through my fingers ( ive also had ariund 5 Palitoy troopers), but i have to say that these repros are getting closer. Both of these are extremely close to being exact to the originals. Poons in particular is shockingly good. Beggars Canyons cards are Kenner mainly but still good (in a production sense - i dont support repros) but Poons is very worrying as it is of outstanding quality. Like it or not, these guys are not producing replica shite like Mr Orme, they are producing VERY near perfect replicas.

My conclusion is that the day is coming that we are getting nearer and nearer to the perfect repro. Will we in time see a repro graded mistakenly?

Its very worrying, and alarming how good these things are getting but my feeling is that we unfortunately now have no control over the MOC market anymore. I suppose the older and more sentimental i get the more i find it hard, but im also starting to be more relaxed about it all? The world has driven itself to be able to produce such quality and however unfortunate it is we just cannot stop it. I do not support repros in anyway, BUT i will not criticise people who like to try and bring the look and aesthetics back to their life. Ive no doubt there are thousands of budget collectors out there who like to get the vintage feel and genuinley cannot afford the real deal, should they really be frowned upon because they want to bring something famiiar back to their collection. Some will say go e reseal route, but again, some just dont have the funds. Should a collector who has recarded some vintage figures be any different to a collector with a full Palitoy 12 back run or whatever??

Food for thought, and good to be talking again.

lee
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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Cardbackkid » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Personally I don’t agree although they look pretty convincing you just can’t replicate that vintage smell .

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby subzero » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:52 pm

Cardbackkid wrote:Personally I don’t agree although they look pretty convincing you just can’t replicate that vintage smell .


Whack one up in the loft for a year or two amongst a load of other old smelling items and let me know what it smells like. :wink:
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_Lee_
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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby _Lee_ » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Cardbackkid wrote:Personally I don’t agree although they look pretty convincing you just can’t replicate that vintage smell .


Lets remember there are some original MOC that don't have that smell you refer to. The smell of the figure inside yes, but as for the cardstock etc not a chance. Many times it comes with age, but lets not forget some people were still collecting these for years and had them hidden away between the mid 80's and 2000's. I remember buying some MOC from Dogatuna and they looked crystal clear and brand new:

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=944701

Happy days!

However, these arrived when the repro game was still in its infancy and it just proves you can never tell what is out there.
Vintage toys ,prop and autograph collector and Luton Town FC supporter.
Also try to play guitar with the guy in my avatar as an inspiration!
JASON BECKER STILL THE BEST EVER AND STILL HERE DESPITE A.L.S.

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Pomse2001 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:29 pm

Even as most of it is not difficult to id as repro. Then I still think it is sad that they make all this repro stuff. I am so tired of opening auctions on ebay and after reading the auction I learn the items are repro or I first see it when I see a big picture :evil:

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby theforceuk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:46 pm

It is worrying and certain to improve how good they are getting. Next year flying cars are going to be for sale in certain parts of the world, technology is moving forwards faster than ever. Just buy beaters.
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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Darth Bobby » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Depressing thought, there’s so many scumbags and chancers out there.

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Dannywhiteley » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:16 am

With modern manufacturing I'm surprised it's taken so long to deconstruct and copy a carded figure and make it almost indistinguishable to the real thing.

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby edd_jedi » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:12 am

It would be interesting to see a comparison of the print under a microscope. Although the new repro cards might look good at first glance, you cannot replicate the effect of litho printing with a digital print. I'm sure under close inspection it will be possible to tell the difference.

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Snaketibe » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:59 am

The real problem is with MOC values as high as they are, there is absolutely a financial motive for criminals to manufacture convincing fakes of rare cards. Litho printing is (so I'm told) quite expensive, but at some point it becomes economically worthwhile for a faker to invest in it if they can sell the end products for thousands.

The sad truth is that if someone were to manufacture a card and bubble using the same techniques and using the same materials as Kenner did (and sourcing the card images from ultra high-res scans of real cards, and using 3D scans of real bubbles), and then heat-seal mint loose figures inside them using the same method used in the 70's and 80's, rather than slapping on some Bostik or using Toy Toni's iron, then the end results could easily become indistinguishable from the real thing. And as soon as a counterfeit becomes indistinguishable from the real thing, we're all screwed.

I've long thought that there is a massive criminal motive for faking Palitoy VCJs. Even if the manufacturing process cost you thousands to set up, with each MOC selling for £20,000+ these days, if you 'found' just one or two MOCs per year, you could make a fortune. And of course if you were that good at it, you would be unlikely to stop at just a couple of VCJs. I'm sure a 30 back Fett, Tri-logo Madine and coin-carded Yak Face or two wouldn't be far behind :-(

And of course, what's to say that totally convincing fakes aren't already here and in circulation? If we the collectors can't tell them apart from the real thing, how would we even know they exist? It's all worrying stuff... :?

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby subzero » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:10 am

Here's another scary one, what about not even replicating an entire MOC?, with the very high value of some used cardbacks alone they wouldn't even need to put together a convincing MOC with a bubble and figure attached. Instead they could just make a cardback, glue on a vintage bubble then tear it off making it look used, and sell it for hundreds.... :shock:
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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby _Lee_ » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:19 pm

Snaketibe wrote:The real problem is with MOC values as high as they are, there is absolutely a financial motive for criminals to manufacture convincing fakes of rare cards. Litho printing is (so I'm told) quite expensive, but at some point it becomes economically worthwhile for a faker to invest in it if they can sell the end products for thousands.

The sad truth is that if someone were to manufacture a card and bubble using the same techniques and using the same materials as Kenner did (and sourcing the card images from ultra high-res scans of real cards, and using 3D scans of real bubbles), and then heat-seal mint loose figures inside them using the same method used in the 70's and 80's, rather than slapping on some Bostik or using Toy Toni's iron, then the end results could easily become indistinguishable from the real thing. And as soon as a counterfeit becomes indistinguishable from the real thing, we're all screwed.

I've long thought that there is a massive criminal motive for faking Palitoy VCJs. Even if the manufacturing process cost you thousands to set up, with each MOC selling for £20,000+ these days, if you 'found' just one or two MOCs per year, you could make a fortune. And of course if you were that good at it, you would be unlikely to stop at just a couple of VCJs. I'm sure a 30 back Fett, Tri-logo Madine and coin-carded Yak Face or two wouldn't be far behind :-(

And of course, what's to say that totally convincing fakes aren't already here and in circulation? If we the collectors can't tell them apart from the real thing, how would we even know they exist? It's all worrying stuff... :?


Great post.

Even though I know I was a naysayer on the Palitoy VCJ theory I was proven wrong which I freely admit to. However, what does concern me is how many of these seem to be getting 'found' now. I first heard of the theory in early 2000 and spoke with many collectors about it whom also seemed to consider it false. Its amazing how many have surfaced and also alarming how these have been found in collectors with shady pasts. Im not going to go into all that again, but the information is out there. I was actually glad I was proved wrong, but then again im worried about them suddenly 'popping up' so to say.

Im pretty sure there are some fakes in circulation and however painful it may sound, there probably are loads out there. Toni managed to pretty much cripple the hobby for a lot of people, and the only thing he had right were the original cards. However, he actually fooled MANY collectors to the point were they were trying to deny it happened. I actually own a TT and although I know its fake, I got it for next to nothing from a good friend. However, there are many people whom got stung for a lot of money. I remember when I bought a Fett, Lando Skiff and C3P0 from Toni in 2000 and I said to someone at the time that something wasn't right and he said I was nuts. I was of the opinion that if I mentioned my thoughts, I would be hung,drawn and quartered!!! Many people had thousands tied up in these even before the price hikes and then it all came crashing down. I would also like to say that I do think there are many legit Palitoy cards out there which are being deemed as Toy Tonis, and that together with Tonis mash ups have destroyed the faith in that line.

The ironic thing about all this is that I originally started this little investigation because of the hot weather we have been having. I don't suppose many would have though that this is one of the hottest periods on record for the UK, I myself cannot remember such a long period of heat?? Im just hoping that many collectors have looked after their collections properly and not let some become damaged from heat. Lets think of it this way, you are paying at least £5-800 for the least popular Palitoy 12 backs - that is a lot of money to have tied up in plastic and card. It is a very worrying idea, and seeing as though Chewbaccas, Lukes etc go for a lot more is it now a risky gamble to join the club? Although we look at a card and know that It was made in the 70's. sat on a shop shelf and was bought then it adds to the aura of the piece. That figure has been in there for nearly 40 years and has stood the test of time but for how much longer?? Is this the reason people turn to repros?

Lee
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Also try to play guitar with the guy in my avatar as an inspiration!
JASON BECKER STILL THE BEST EVER AND STILL HERE DESPITE A.L.S.

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby jayums » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:41 pm

I think the best way to protect yourself is to buy stuff that you are satisfied is genuine at a price you’re comfortable paying (and never recouping!).

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Mini99 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:04 pm

I actually own a TT and although I know its fake, I got it for next to nothing from a good friend

Slightly off topic, but at the moment there are two declared TT for £150.00 each!
Is this really what people will pay for a TT nowadays?

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Re: The day is coming....repro MOC

Postby Robstyley » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:52 pm

That’s nothing, I saw a graded Toy Toni DSD for sale the other day for £269 :o


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