Response to Claims

_Lee_ said:

Grant_C said:

I don't understand why you never came to FF to confront him personally in December or April?

Click to expand...

Grant,

What was said by Jeff at FF? If it is relevant then shouldnt it be posted here??

Click to expand...

He was making claims that many of the baggies I returned to him (Via UKG) were not fake & that UKG had in fact passed them as authentic - yeah ok :lol: :lol:

Frank - can you confirm that when UKG publish their findings, however it gets done, this is an independent opinion? i.e. that they did not come to you and ask for your opinion on the baggies. How would you rate UKG's authority on baggies in general? I am very interested to see what UKG say about these.

I have had no part in the authentication (or lack of it) in any way with regards to the baggies that have been returned to UKG, Jeff was quite specific about me not being allowed access to his stuff in terms of authenticating them or even seeing them for that matter, so any decision on these will be down to UKG not myself.

IMO UKG are pretty good on baggie identification, the exception to the rule I'd say would be those palitoy-k "style" ones that all traced back to Jeff directly, that particular baggie had everyone fooled for a long time, but they have been confirmed fake 100% now

FYI Jeff has now stared requesting further returns (by others) be sent to UKG for appraisal rather than to him directly as before.

When I get my grail fail report from the graders I will make it public here as I have nothing to hide.

momike said:

Should of just left him to it frank, people are more bothered about poor old Jeff and how he was exposed than the facts, truth is for the most part I don't think people even give a **** (I know some do you know who you are) which is the sadest thing about this, I tell you what collectors 10 years ago wouldn't of stood for all this.......but it's ok Jeffs giving out refunds so all is one with the world.....yeah right, the guy told lie after lie got exposed time and time again selling baggies he knew where fake....we are talking about tens of thousands of pounds here and hundreds of fake baggies that all share a lot the same traits in the fonts, seals and baggie material

Frank mate I have to take my hat of to you because you exposed someone who has been selling fake stuff for years and if not for your actions would still be doing so to this day....... a lot of people have had money back and that is down to your efforts frank and I salute you for it fella :wink: I think you faced an uphill struggle as you were always going to come up against nay Sayers and people who would rather bury there heads in the sand as for some ignorance is bliss.....

Click to expand...

Many a true word spoke there Mike, I am happy many have had a refund, though refunds as you say are IMO not the big issue here, though it would bloody seem like it with everyone going back door to get their money rather than standing up to be counted & coming forward, I could reel off a huge list of names, but hey it's not my place to force others to do the right thing, all I can do is do the right thing myself, it's up to the others involved to do what they feel is right for them.

newswseller said:

Grant_C said:

Just be good to have an answer to why a refund is being offered when most other successful scams did nothing.

Click to expand...

Because in reality only a very small amount of his fakes have been returned for refunds.. Think about how many have been churned out over the years, via ebay and toy fairs etc, and how many of those have been passed on to other unsuspecting buyers, who know nothing about this scam.. or even those that have been scammed and think it's only one £30 baggie, i can't be arsed with the hassle of returning it..

There's still collectors out there with toy toni's sitting in their collection, who know nothing about the whole TT saga.

Meanwhile Jeff is driving around in his Lambo..

Click to expand...

Bingo! the refunds are IMO just another smokescreen to limit collateral damage, if every single fake item sold by Jeff over the years was returned for a refund I imagine it would be a staggering sum, be great to see that happen & more so to get a full breakdown or the items & real numbers involved.

Regarding his divorce, I dont buy that. I've been there, done it and lost everything I ever worked for in the past. I never once tried to use or abuse friends or fellow collectors to make financial gain Ripping people off isn't something can be rectified just by giving a refund, it runs deeper. That aside ,divorce is am awful process.

This guy is on a par with Toni and seemingly thinks that if he does what Toni didn't do ( meet unhappy collectors face to face ) then it is a path to redemption. That would be like Toni giving unused cardbacks out to his fraud victims by way of compensation.

Its always the people behind the scenes about these situations that suffer. Frank has brought so much info and proof to the table, but it seems he is being questioned. I remember the Toni debacle well and although I provided very important evidence to prove he was doing what he was I was harassed in the same way purely because I didn't agree with someone elses opinion. I'm still suffering after effects from that myself , and although its only toys to most people its a very important part of my life which keeps in affecting my thinking. Some people tend to ignore me purely because I will say something how it is, which I apologise for but it matters to me.

Let's not cause this to divide the forum, but let's also back Frank in this.

I have no horse in this race, as I have no baggies, and have never owned a baggie (save one opened one).

A casual observation on Jeffs stand from farthest from for the fifteen or so minutes that I wasn't sleeping off my drink induced stroke in the car or destroying the co-ops toilet.

It did look to me like the stall of someone selling up. I may well have got that wrong but it looked like that to me.

Frank, I for one am immensely grateful and pleased you exposed this scam, and I don't collect baggies. I do think aspects of this, from all sides (and there are many, it seems,) that could have been handled better but that isn't the issue. The issue is the scam you discovered and proved. It's unfortunate that this has caused rifts and factions and I think personalities have had a great part to play.

That all said, I think those that are being negative towards refunds need to take a moment and consider the alternative: no refunds.

I don't think one single person here has said "Jeff's giving refunds so that makes everything right" so all this negativity towards refunds seem a bit daft. No, a refund does not make everything right, but it does make the financial part right (in some cases....) so that's a start. There is much that could be done to restore trust, quite possibly entirely, but that a matter for Jeff.

As has been said, the police wouldn't bat an eyelid unless you landed a completed case file on their desk. Jeff continues to protest his innocence and hand out refunds. It's better than just packing up, changing eBay names and selling elsewhere. Stopping Jeff from going to FF would not have made any sense. I'd love to know how much in the way of cash he handed back that da but I bet it was just a couple of hundred quid. People got their money back, how is that a bad thing?

As you say, Frank, it'll all come out in the wash with the UKG reports although I doubt it'll put this thing to bed.

Absoloutely agree Lee.

Why has this whole debacle been brought to the attention of the community ? If you have to ask that question then you've, IMO, already Lost.

It's easy to stand by, not to commit,
To try and make the comfortable fit,
If a wrong is plainly in sight,
Have you the compunction to make things right ?
I salute those that take a stance through conviction,
Not to shy from attrition or contradiction,
For the benefit of others, not for personal gain,
These are the principles that need to remain,
Or do we stand by, hold back, hold fast,
Whilst others will nail their colours to the mast,
So thanks I put forward to he that will,
For the sake of others swallow the bitter pill.

Thank you Frank

Don't think anyone is arguing that refunds are bad Simon, I was just answering Grant's question 'why refund if he was out to defraud'

Like Ben I have no horse in this race and can see both sides, and refunds are certainly good!

I'm also someone who remembers and was involved in the Billy Boy fake prototype scandal.

Billy Boy was pretty much caught red handed faking prototypes and refunded quite a few of us based in the U.K (less bothered about refunding those a plane ride away)

From the outside the parallels to Jeff and his fake baggies are uncanny. In my opinion the only difference is Jeff has faced up to this in person, which is to be admired.

momike said:

Should of just left him to it frank, people are more bothered about poor old Jeff and how he was exposed than the facts, truth is for the most part I don't think people even give a **** (I know some do you know who you are) which is the sadest thing about this, I tell you what collectors 10 years ago wouldn't of stood for all this.......but it's ok Jeffs giving out refunds so all is one with the world.....yeah right, the guy told lie after lie got exposed time and time again selling baggies he knew where fake....we are talking about tens of thousands of pounds here and hundreds of fake baggies that all share a lot the same traits in the fonts, seals and baggie material

Frank mate I have to take my hat of to you because you exposed someone who has been selling fake stuff for years and if not for your actions would still be doing so to this day....... a lot of people have had money back and that is down to your efforts frank and I salute you for it fella :wink: I think you faced an uphill struggle as you were always going to come up against nay Sayers and people who would rather bury there heads in the sand as for some ignorance is bliss.....

Click to expand...

Well said, saved me the hassle, I'm 100% behind Frank on this, even though I have never owned a baggie or have ever met this Jeff chap.

One thing I do no, he is completely full of **** and more ****. :?

spoons said:

Don't think anyone is arguing that refunds are bad Simon, I was just answering Grant's question 'why refund if he was out to defraud'....

Click to expand...

Not having a go at you, or indeed anyone, in particular, mate. Just saying refunds are positive and some small victory. And I agree: refunds in no way make the seller automatically innocent or actually prove anything one way or the other.

refunds being issued yet won't refund the person responsible for bringing an end to the fraud - that speaks volumes, if it were an honest mistake (several dozen times over) then surely you'd be looking to work with the person that was your go to guy for many years??

What stands out to me the most is that Jeff offered refunds pretty much straight away when all this came to light for the sw-a, sw-b, sw-d, Meccano and the dodgy Kenner logo baggies, I have to question why he did not send those to be looked at by ukg before offering refunds as that's what I would of done and imagine most of you guys would of done the same in that you would of sought out a second opinion, the fact he offered those refunds pretty much immediately leads me to no other conclusion than that he was well aware those baggies were moody

lejackal said:

refunds being issued yet won't refund the person responsible for bringing an end to the fraud - that speaks volumes, if it were an honest mistake (several dozen times over) then surely you'd be looking to work with the person that was your go to guy for many years??

Click to expand...

I actually got a refund for the baggies I returned, plus some interesting emails from Jeff, so yes I got a full refund, now shall we break it down?

1. I got a refund to (IMO) calm the storm - ain't happening & I was not about to start shouting I got it from the highest peek & start praising the guy for it considering the losses in question not to mention 100's of hours of my time trying to get the evidence in question to bring this sad sage to light.

2. Did I get my investment back? - No some baggies were bought a few years back at market value then VS market value now = 100's if not thousands lost

3. More to point 2 really, I got a refund yes & I lost money big time on market value now, but does it end there? - No here are 2 prime examples -

3A - I had a popy DSD - I now have a popy box & booklets minus the baggie - I did not even bother returning this one I opened it to put with my loose run - total loss

3B - I had a full run of all 6 SW-a baggie for the ESB display mock up stand, now to put this in context there maybe 3 to 6 known examples of each of 5 of those 6 figures in the world, most likely less than 3 of each, it took me about 6 years & thousands to put the set together (only full set in the world), now with the fake SW-a lando the set is incomplete & in tatters, so I hear you think well it's just a baggie he got from Jeff & he got a full refund for what he paid, wrong, I had an example already & had hoped this was an upgrade, so I let the other one go to an avid baggie collector, so this being fake as said about ruined the set.

Has everyone being given a refund?? - that we will most likely never know same as we will never know the amount of baggies (or all the types of baggies) in question due to this FACT - no one wants to come forward & say what needs to be said, in fact I would say 90 to 95% of those involved have simply slopped off to Jeff directly via email to get a refund rather than actually coming forward & stating I bough X & Y which cost me X in 19?? 20?? & these are photos of what I had & am returning for the record, my bill was tiny compared to many others I know of at 1800ish, am I happy I got my refund - in a way yes,in a way no,as had I just opened all the fakes & had them loose graded at today's current market value I would most likely be better off, do I care if I got a refund or not - quite frankly not in the bloody slightest, as the money is not what this is about is it??, well not for me at least.

momike said:

What stands out to me the most is that Jeff offered refunds pretty much straight away when all this came to light for the sw-a, sw-b, sw-d, Meccano and the dodgy Kenner logo baggies, I have to question why he did not send those to be looked at by ukg before offering refunds as that's what I would of done and imagine most of you guys would of done the same in that you would of sought out a second opinion, the fact he offered those refunds pretty much immediately leads me to no other conclusion than that he was well aware those baggies were moody

Click to expand...

A VERY valid point Mike, to me offering instant refund & with a finite short time period to qualify for the refund speaks volumes to me & this is my reasoning -

Why as others have stated even offer a refund if out to scam?? - simple answer in my book, these baggies we know about (or did when this started) are the tip of the iceberg, - offer refunds quick sharp before they discover the 100's if not 1000's of palitoy-k's I sold are also fake, - damage limitation plain & simple as I see it, had we not pushed further to see what else is affected by these issues the bill would be minimal, we now have a pretty extensive list off affected baggies SW-a/b/d / ESB-a / Palitoy-k /POTF Palitoy-i's - just how much more have we missed???, just how deep does the deception go?? & the biggie - is it just individual baggies that have been tampered with/faked??

Fail report just back from UKG confirming every baggie I returned to Jeff is 100% fake, it's in a PDF format so not sure how to upload it as is, this is copied & pasted -

UkGraders Limited
3 Hamilton Road
Sutton in Ashfield
Notts
NG17 5LD
England

[email protected]

Dear Frank.

Please see below the report for the failed baggies that you sent in for confirmation that all have issues either relating to seal type or the text is stencilled onto the bags.

X3 Boba Fetts ESB-F/ESB-D/ROTJ-A Seal Types are not correct on all 3
X1 Lando Calrissian SW-A Baggie Stencilled/Hand Painted White.
X1 Rebo Band Incorrect Bags and Stencilled Text
X1 Luke X-Wing Fake Baggie.
X1 Leia Boushh Seal and Text Stencilled
X1 Hoth Stormtrooper incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Imperial Commander incorrect seal type.
X1 Death Star Droid incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Stormtrooper incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Leia Organa incorrect seal and stencilled text also figure is play worn.
X1 8D8 Fake baggie.
X1 Rebel Commando Fake Baggie.

Please feel free to contact me on the above email to clarify any of the above.
Yours Sincerely,
Stephen Ward,
Director of UK Graders Limited

I screenshotted the PDF doc for clarity, I also have some info I would like to share from the latest emails I got back from Jeff when we were dealing with the refund, I'll add the screenshots shortly

Well that confirms everything you stated Frank, let's see Jeff try to defend this!

Ian

I inadvertently met Jeff at farthest from, didn't know it was him until my friend told me on the way home, everyone was totally confused as to what the F he was doing there!