Response to Claims

Richard_H · Jun 14, 2017

Well, that's case closed that the baggies are fake IMO.

I also think it was right that Jeff went to FF. He needs to answer questions, sort out refunds.... no good going into hiding like TT.

Lindo · Jun 14, 2017

I'm sure jeff doesn't give a **** tbh, the confirmation from UKG that they are fake will have little consequence and pretty meaningless as frank had already confirmed they were, people know they are fake because it has been quite public anyway but that does not stop him doing events and people are still buying from him so why should he care, doesn't appear that his reputation is suffering much at all does it

Richard_H · Jun 14, 2017

If I was owed £10k I'd want him doing events to sell everything he could to get my money back quickest.

Michael Sith · Jun 14, 2017

Glad that the report is back and just confirms what Frank has put forward all along.

In regard to the selling of Mocs etc ( that have probably been purchased with ill gotten gains, which raises its own ethical questions) this is only part of the issue highlighted throughout this thread.

As Frank, and others have raised, it's not just about the money, and to boil it down to that, undermines the severity of the damage done to the hobby, the number of fakes that are out there in circulation and all of the other damaging effects of this affair.

Frunkstar · Jun 14, 2017

Richard_H said:
If I was owed £10k I'd want him doing events to sell everything he could to get my money back quickest.

Yeah "ideal world scenario" but are folks getting back those takings he made at FF???, I know one guy who's owed a further several K (already been paid back some) yet when I told him Jeff took a huge profit at FF he asked again & from what I understand has still not seen another penny, so it begs the question - what exactly is happening with the monies taken at the event??

I did raise my concerns about being allowed to stand @ FF & my suggestion was that if he is allowed a stand then ideally the funds taken should be held by the event organizers to make SURE the taking are actually going to those owed.

Frunkstar · Jun 14, 2017

Michael Sith said:
Glad that the report is back and just confirms what Frank has put forward all along.

1. ( that have probably been purchased with ill gotten gains, which raises its own ethical questions) - Bingo!

2. this is only part of the issue highlighted throughout this thread. - Bingo!

3. it's not just about the money - for me it's NEVER been about the money

4. and to boil it down to that, undermines the severity of the damage done to the hobby - the most important point right there

For me it's the wanton destruction of the hobby, specifically my focus field within the hobby, I worked hard for many years to re-instill a little faith & confidence in non kennner issued baggies after the Billy Boy tragedy, for me it's all about ensuring the future of the hobby I love, I've never been concerned about getting my money back & even though I did, I am still looking at an ENORMOUS deffest not to mention gaps in my collection runs I may now never ever have the chance to complete again.

Richard_H · Jun 15, 2017

Yes of course I'm referring to an ideal situation. I wasn't at FF so can't comment on his reception there but if he's driven away before all the refunds have been received then that is to the benefit of nobody.

robpmarsh · Jun 15, 2017

I didn't see any confrontations on the Sunday regarding baggies. Jeff was selling off some MOCs at decent prices (I even bought one). Seemed like a nice guy to talk to but I've not had any dealings with him to the extent of Frank and others.

sparkysx · Jun 15, 2017

The mocs and loose were decent prices. The chap on the stall to the left of him bought all of his luke farmboys for peanuts and said he was going to flip them on echo.

Frunkstar · Jun 15, 2017

Here's a couple of excerpts from the emails I was on about going on about the legal rout. - yeah ok then :lol

& my reply

_Lee_ · Jun 15, 2017

Well done Frank

seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Im hoping that these baggies are the real deal, waddya say :lol:

Michael Sith · Jun 15, 2017

Yes Frank, I know you knew the truth all along but as Lee says, EVERYBODY should now be thankful for what you've done bud

By the way Lee I think they are TT's :?

Richard_H · Jun 15, 2017

Michael Sith said:
By the way Lee I think they are TT's :?

Nope. Tetleys

momike · Jun 15, 2017

I wonder if Jeff will be coming back on with a full report of ukgs findings regarding his baggies and if he will destroy the fakes as he stated he would?

Frunkstar · Jun 22, 2017

_Lee_ said:
Well done Frank seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Thanks Lee & you hit the nail right on the head with that statement buddy, everyone was very quick to jump to Jeff's defense & also openly defend him at FF, to the point of intimidating anyone considering asking for a refund which I think is appalling TBH, yet there it is, proof his **** is indeed **** & also prof he has been talking out of his ass "I did seek legal advice" - yeh ok then, so a faker & a liar & IMO most likely either the maker or instigator of having the fakes made, yet now the proof is there in black & white where is everyone - does nobody really give a flying **** anymore??, no we don't have any hard evidence of him making them, but if he did not, then why not put forward exactly where they did come from.

I thought it was also appalling how half the community were willing crucify me / the investigation team over this without a shred of evidence put forward by the scammer, not then - not now, had nobody else noticed we are still waiting for 1 piece of actually proof / evidence to clear Jeff from actually having these made?? - wake up & smell the coffee - there is none, none whatsoever! sure as **** if I were being accused of making fakes i would have been putting evidence forward of where I got all my stock from in the form of payment details.

Many of you happy to still buy alternative stock in the form of MOC's & Loose from him - really??? you are happy to line the pockets of someone who's literally been stealing from us & deceiving the community as a whole - shame on you!

Just so you all understand the why behind the way I initially started the fakes thread off & took so much flack about - I have dealt with scammers & con men before, the way to draw them out is to make them think they have a strong case to defend themselves due to lack of or circumstantial evidence, this is why there was only minimal evidence put forward on the OP, but the reactions here & more so the pod cast soon put pay to that idea, oh yeah he seems like a nice guy right??, yes he struck me as the same, does that make a person innocent of fakery / fraud & the ability to deceive?? - you think a con man or confidence trickster would bring in the money if they were cunts to you??

Yes it's close knit community in SW collecting circles & we a like to think the best of one-another, it's not like I made some kind of knee jerk reaction over this situation, I had been monitoring the situation for over 2 years after seeing several things being sold sometimes over & over again (multiples of rare items etc) that just did not make any sense before I even considered there may be foul play involved.

Frunkstar · Jun 22, 2017

momike said:
I wonder if Jeff will be coming back on with a full report of ukgs findings regarding his baggies and if he will destroy the fakes as he stated he would?

I think we have 2 hopes & Bob's dead!

as the the other point - UKG have confirmed any they find to be fake will be opened & not returned which at least is a small victory.

ScruffyLookingNH · Jun 22, 2017

Frunkstar said:
_Lee_ said:

Well done Frank seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Click to expand...

Thanks Lee & you hit the nail right on the head with that statement buddy, everyone was very quick to jump to Jeff's defense & also openly defend him at FF, to the point of intimidating anyone considering asking for a refund which I think is appalling TBH, yet there it is, proof his **** is indeed **** & also prof he has been talking out of his ass "I did seek legal advice" - yeh ok then, so a faker & a liar & IMO most likely either the maker or instigator of having the fakes made, yet now the proof is there in black & white where is everyone - does nobody really give a flying **** anymore??, no we don't have any hard evidence of him making them, but if he did not, then why not put forward exactly where they did come from.

I thought it was also appalling how half the community were willing crucify me / the investigation team over this without a shred of evidence put forward by the scammer, not then - not now, had nobody else noticed we are still waiting for 1 piece of actually proof / evidence to clear Jeff from actually having these made?? - wake up & smell the coffee - there is none, none whatsoever! sure as **** if I were being accused of making fakes i would have been putting evidence forward of where I got all my stock from in the form of payment details.

Many of you happy to still buy alternative stock in the form of MOC's & Loose from him - really??? you are happy to line the pockets of someone who's literally been stealing from us & deceiving the community as a whole - shame on you!

Just so you all understand the why behind the way I initially started the fakes thread off & took so much flack about - I have dealt with scammers & con men before, the way to draw them out is to make them think they have a strong case to defend themselves due to lack of or circumstantial evidence, this is why there was only minimal evidence put forward on the OP, but the reactions here & more so the pod cast soon put pay to that idea, oh yeah he seems like a nice guy right??, yes he struck me as the same, does that make a person innocent of fakery / fraud & the ability to deceive?? - you think a con man or confidence trickster would bring in the money if they were cunts to you??

Yes it's close knit community in SW collecting circles & we a like to think the best of one-another, it's not like I made some kind of knee jerk reaction over this situation, I had been monitoring the situation for over 2 years after seeing several things being sold sometimes over & over again (multiples of rare items etc) that just did not make any sense before I even considered there may be foul play involved.

Couple of things, Frank. When were these undisclosed people intimidating anyone thinking of asking for a refund? I was there and saw no evidence of that whatsoever. As you weren't there I assume you have some testimony from someone who was? If so I would love to hear it because that is somewhat alarming if true. [*EDIT*: someone's been in touch about this and explained what happened. I agree, this wasn't a good thing at all]

Secondly, I bought something from Jeff last FF. Shame on me? Really? I've bought from TT, too. OK, so I won't say it gave me a enormous sense of well being in either case, but there was a sense of small comfort, in the buying from Jeff, that at least my money was only going to end up in the pocket of someone returning a fake baggie. I guess shame on me for buying from Vectis, too, seeing as they appear (unknowingly it has to be said) sold at least one fake item in one of their recent sales (not the VCJ). And shame on me for buying from Sainsbury's and Tescos because they tricked me in some of their 3 for 2 deals when I would have been better off buying three at the normal full price. Stick to the facts of the matter, Frank, do not start preaching about morals.

I have supported you and your work on this from the first time I heard about it. The hours and knowledge you and the rest have put in is laudable, to say the least. Wasn't a fan of how it was released but there we go, that's been done to death. I didn't criticise it at the time because the criticism was in danger of drowning out what the real issue was: the fakes. However, what I can't stay quiet about any longer, let alone support, is this campaign you now seem to be engaged in of having a go at anyone who wasn't willing to lynch Jeff on sight at the last FF. There are some here that have let their emotions get in the way of seeing the evidence in your findings and have defended the indefensible, true, but you have also let your emotions get the better from you and are beginning to come across as bitter, to say the very least.

Don't let this remarkable piece of detective work be remembered for the divisions this seems to have brought into relief but rather for the lessons that can be learnt by the whole community: Caveat emptor and if it can be faked, it will.

Lindo · Jun 22, 2017

Oi scruffy I see your point but lay off Tesco's mate they pay my bills and it's not a con honest

Seriously though Frank you need to chill mate, seems like people don't really care about it on the scale that you do, so having a pop at people won't help and surely UKG can't refuse to send something back to someone even if it is fake

Richard_H · Jun 22, 2017

ScruffyLookingNH said:
Couple of things, Frank. When were these undisclosed people intimidating anyone thinking of asking for a refund? I was there and saw no evidence of that whatsoever. As you weren't there I assume you have some testimony from someone who was? If so I would love to hear it because that is somewhat alarming if true. [*EDIT*: someone's been in touch about this and explained what happened. I agree, this wasn't a good thing at all]

I wasn't at FF but would be very alarmed if this was true.

Michael Sith · Jun 22, 2017

:shock:

Well, for me, three responses, non of which are supportive, one that says " chill out, people don't seem to be as bothered as you" !

Let's not forget, it's not whether or not you collect baggies, or have been bitten by this, it's about the deceit, dishonesty, and damage to the hobby caused.

Frank, I've said it before and I will say it again, THANKYOU for what you have done for the hobby.

Now I'm not attritional in character, or someone that spoils for an argument, and try to be decent in all I do. Some people may not like me, that's their choice. But I detest dishonesty, and devious manipulation, and the hobby I love is a little oasis for me, and anyone that does anything to protect and defend it, is applauded by me for one, again THANKYOU. Frank.

Response to Claims

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