WATCH OUT THREAD – ANOTHER FAKE ITEM DISCOVERED

Thanks frank for the warning and it is great to see you back on the forum :wink:

As always this fake stuff is very alarming

As others have said I'm really sorry to see you've been stung with something again Frank. Huge respect on the investigative work and calling it out - I know baggiegate kicked off a shitstorm for you - so I really hope this gets sorted out in your favour.

Also, as others have said, it's great to see you post on here again.

Ouch !!!!

Sorry to hear of this, hope justice is served to these twats, the experience like yours makes collectors very vary when parting with large sums of well earned cash as you just dont know if your getting legit vintage items or knock offs.

Thank you for sharing with the other members and again, sorry to hear of your bad experience.

Thankfully the good guys outweigh the bad guys, its always good to name and shame the pond life responsible for churning this crap out.

To me it's more alarming that this stuff is getting sold at places like farthest from, you would not expect to buy fakes from a place like that, surely the sellers must be concerned about being rumbled and confronted at such events

Lindo said:

To me it's more alarming that this stuff is getting sold at places like farthest from, you would not expect to buy fakes from a place like that, surely the sellers must be concerned about being rumbled and confronted at such events

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Spot on.

Events like FF and Echo Live should really be considered safe havens when it comes to the sale of fakes.

Lindo said:

To me it's more alarming that this stuff is getting sold at places like farthest from, you would not expect to buy fakes from a place like that, surely the sellers must be concerned about being rumbled and confronted at such events

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I would have thought the same after this thing broke with the baggie gate around January 2017 to my knowledge and the evidence has been mounting since then with more people coming forward with these fakes being extremely disappointed to find them to be repro knock ups.

SublevelStudios said:

Lindo said:

To me it's more alarming that this stuff is getting sold at places like farthest from, you would not expect to buy fakes from a place like that, surely the sellers must be concerned about being rumbled and confronted at such events

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Spot on.

Events like FF and Echo Live should really be considered safe havens when it comes to the sale of fakes.

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Totally agree, worrying indeed if this is happening at FF to very experienced collectors.

Mini99 said:

SublevelStudios said:

Lindo said:

To me it's more alarming that this stuff is getting sold at places like farthest from, you would not expect to buy fakes from a place like that, surely the sellers must be concerned about being rumbled and confronted at such events

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Spot on.

Events like FF and Echo Live should really be considered safe havens when it comes to the sale of fakes.

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Totally agree, worrying indeed if this is happening at FF to very experienced collectors.

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Is there a reason these Item's along with the Woolies pack's were allowed to be sold at FF even after the baggie outing post?

It's as if he was encouraged to do it. Wierd in my opinion. Just my opinion but probably accepted by the rest of the community

Edd, have you not argued this point many time's with the host of the event?

I remember having a group chat with Dave tree about Jeff selling at ff over some comments I made on Facebook last year, his argument was that Jeff should be able to sell at the event so he could make money that he could refund to people he had sold fakes to (he tells people he has payed everyone back but he hasn't) and that was best plan of action as he/we didn't want him going the way of toytoni or bill Rodgers and going underground and not refunding money's owed. I remember saying that was a fair point but I didn't think under the circumstances that it was much to ask that Jeff not be able to sell bagged items at the event and was very disappointed that Dave tree didn't even take it on board during the chat we had, if memory serves me right he didn't even reply to that suggestion or even acknowledge it which I thought was really poor form on his part tbh......I'm pretty sure I saw a picture of one of those woolies packs that are under the spotlight at the minute on jeffs stall as well as mailers and an EB kit

Yes I also voiced my concerns to Dave back at the time of the outing & made it clear I did not think Jeff should be welcomed at FF or other events let alone be allowed to trade at them, as mentioned above he was still allowed but we were assured he would not be allowed to sell baggies or baggie related items, yet I have seen he has still been selling woolies packs mailers & multi packs at the event which are obviously all baggie related which to me is shocking, it is not just still going on but that seemingly for the most part also generally being accepted :?

I spoke with the organizers of Echo Base live directly & was assured Jeff would not be allowed to trade at their even EVER, so at least there's a win there.

I was also told by Marc Hockley that Jeff had informed him everyone had been refunded on the individual fake baggies, but I know for a FACT that this is not the case, I tried at the time to make Marc aware of that but he was not really listening & convinced Jeff was being 100% truthful, that really should have made me think twice, but as with most I took Marc to be a decent guy & maybe just to nice for his own good & a little blinded by the Jeff is "a nice guy" argument, what with Marc doing a lot of good within other areas of the hobby.

TBH I have been pretty shocked & disgusted by his refusal to refund & make good on this item, it's just not the done thing, if I sell anything it comes with a no questions asked refund/replace policy if the buyer is not happy if there is an issue with the item, let alone if the item is found to be fake or not gradable.

I bought some baggies from a seller stateside back in 2014 & last year (during the baggie investigation) I discovered multiple ones were indeed fake, very convincing fakes till I looked them over in very close detail & made the discovery, that had been a 3 year ++ period & the guy refunded in full without question soon as I let them know about the issue, no 2 week cut off time to be entitles to a refund like Jeff told everyone on here, I know there are still many out there who are owed a refund from Jeff, be that a long term ongoing supposed payment plan on huge chunks or those who did not know till well after the "refund cut off date"

It's very sad that this saga continues to throw up these surprises and damaging the hobby.

I am slightly perturbed by what is going on here though, as Marc is a really decent bloke. I would love to hear his side of this story.

Mr-shifter said:

It's very sad that this saga continues to throw up these surprises and damaging the hobby.

I am slightly perturbed by what is going on here though, as Marc is a really decent bloke. I would love to hear his side of this story.

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Well I have nothing to hide & am happy to share any comunications between myself & Marc over this, I welcome Marc coming on & giving his reasons for not being willing to refund me on this item.

Proven fake....won't refund...what's to be perturbed about?

It's not about the person, their reputation, or people's experiences whether friends or acquaintances etc it's a fake, needs to be refunded, autopsies.can come afterwards IMO.

Facts and reputations should not be blurred, opinions, conjecture, hearsay, etc are not the points of fact, if the item is fake that's the point of fact. It's very poor form to put forward caveat emptor, or translated "tough mate" surely that in itself severely damages a reputation.

If it was me, I would say " really sorry, looks like I've been duped in the first instance I will sort it with you"

Just my opinion

An innocent seller would at least look into it and offer to refund on it ( unless they are being genuine and suspect they might be being scammed themselves ).

Refusing to refund and ignoring the situation though is a huge red flag!

Michael Sith said:

Proven fake....won't refund...what's to be perturbed about?

It's not about the person, their reputation, or people's experiences whether friends or acquaintances etc it's a fake, needs to be refunded, autopsies.can come afterwards IMO.

Facts and reputations should not be blurred, opinions, conjecture, hearsay, etc are not the points of fact, if the item is fake that's the point of fact. It's very poor form to put forward caveat emptor, or translated "tough mate" surely that in itself severely damages a reputation.

If it was me, I would say " really sorry, looks like I've been duped in the first instance I will sort it with you"

Just my opinion

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Michael, you surprise me.

Whilst I don't disagree with what you say, it very much surprises me that as the forums usual voice of reason, that you wouldn't like to hear the other side of the story, because there is always a different perspective or opinion. Who knows, maybe even fact.

I am not for one second suggesting that what frank is saying is not damning, but unlike most of the rest of this thread I do not feel in a position to pass judgement until I have heard from all of the parties concerned, just as any fair court in the country.

This thread started as a watch out thread about more fakes in the mailer world, and has quickly decended into a witch hunt.

None of you know all of what has happened here, because Marc hasnt given his account. I don't know, but I would like to know why Marc won't give a refund before deciding what I think of him, as I have known him personally for a while and this is very out of character. None of you have met him, spent time with him, yet so quick to judge without all the facts. Shame on you all.

Frank, I sincerely hope you and Marc can sort this out. It doesn't really have anything to do with anyone else and I hate seeing friends fall out with each other. There has been far too much of this recently in what is in reality a very small community.

Apologies mr-shifter but I don't know your name, I've just read back through all the comments and other than one person referring to scammers as twats I see no negative comments or personal attacks towards the seller whatsoever so find your shame on you all comment totally unfounded as do I calling it a witch hunt. The seller is obviously a friend of yours and appreciate your just sticking up for a friend, I presume you have been in touch with him and made him aware of this thread as I'm sure others have also, it's been nearly a week since this was posted and would of thought he would of been on already and given his side of the story already if he intended too?

From a neutral standpoint and baring in mind the grading report if I was in the sellers shoes I would refund no questions asked just as I would expect if I was the buyer and so would any of you guys in that position, anyone who thinks otherwise I say shame on you

Mr-shifter said:

Michael Sith said:

Proven fake....won't refund...what's to be perturbed about?

It's not about the person, their reputation, or people's experiences whether friends or acquaintances etc it's a fake, needs to be refunded, autopsies.can come afterwards IMO.

Facts and reputations should not be blurred, opinions, conjecture, hearsay, etc are not the points of fact, if the item is fake that's the point of fact. It's very poor form to put forward caveat emptor, or translated "tough mate" surely that in itself severely damages a reputation.

If it was me, I would say " really sorry, looks like I've been duped in the first instance I will sort it with you"

Just my opinion

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Michael, you surprise me.

Whilst I don't disagree with what you say, it very much surprises me that as the forums usual voice of reason, that you wouldn't like to hear the other side of the story, because there is always a different perspective or opinion. Who knows, maybe even fact.

I am not for one second suggesting that what frank is saying is not damning, but unlike most of the rest of this thread I do not feel in a position to pass judgement until I have heard from all of the parties concerned, just as any fair court in the country.

This thread started as a watch out thread about more fakes in the mailer world, and has quickly decended into a witch hunt.

None of you know all of what has happened here, because Marc hasnt given his account. I don't know, but I would like to know why Marc won't give a refund before deciding what I think of him, as I have known him personally for a while and this is very out of character. None of you have met him, spent time with him, yet so quick to judge without all the facts. Shame on you all.

Frank, I sincerely hope you and Marc can sort this out. It doesn't really have anything to do with anyone else and I hate seeing friends fall out with each other. There has been far too much of this recently in what is in reality a very small community.

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Some great points there & I agree with most of it, up till the point Marc said he is refusing to refund me I had also regarded him a good guy in the hobby & a friend, we have spoken many many times over the years & I agree this would seem totally out of character for him, TBH I am a little baffled, but I do know Marc is convinced of the items authenticity regardless of the information I have presented here., which in itself I find rather odd.

Admittedly it's been some time since I bought the item which was one of the reasons he gave for not wanting to refund, also that I saw images of it before buying & did from the images think it was ok, it was not till I had the item in hand & actually had a chance to check it that I noticed several worrying point that raised concerns for me, now at the time I bought it I was in fact in the middle of a house move, so I gave it a quick check to make sure nothing got damaged in the post & then packed it away with all my other vintage (which had already been packed) ready for the move, 6 months down the line, the move done & a new display put together I finally had a chance to unpack it & get it put out on display, it was then I first noticed the possible issues.

I have tried my best to seek advice & input from others within the multi pack collecting community for opinions & on hearing they are not familiar with this pink text I did what I considered prudent to ascertain it's authenticity, not only did I send it to UKG, I also hunted about till I found someone with a known authentic example so it could be looked at next to this for a clear comparison.

I have not put this thread up as a witch hunt, nor have I tried to tar Marc over the issue, all I have done is laid out the facts as I have them, first presented the findings, then after being prompted named where I got it & where it is known to trace back to, something which I was not aware of at the time of buying may I add.

I know 6 months is a little while, but under the circumstances I really do not feel that the time period should be an issue, I have made refunds after longer periods & have also requested them without such issues in the past.

If it is needed I am more than happy to screenshot our entire conversation regarding the sale & the refund request which was conducted on face book.

momike said:

Apologies mr-shifter but I don't know your name, I've just read back through all the comments and other than one person referring to scammers as twats I see no negative comments or personal attacks towards the seller whatsoever so find your shame on you all comment totally unfounded as do I calling it a witch hunt. The seller is obviously a friend of yours and appreciate your just sticking up for a friend, I presume you have been in touch with him and made him aware of this thread as I'm sure others have also, it's been nearly a week since this was posted and would of thought he would of been on already and given his side of the story already if he intended too?

From a neutral standpoint and baring in mind the grading report if I was in the sellers shoes I would refund no questions asked just as I would expect if I was the buyer and so would any of you guys in that position, anyone who thinks otherwise I say shame on you

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It is Ben.

I do consider Marc a friend. I have not been in touch with him about this thread, and haven't seen him since farthest from. His forum account is Star Wares and I have been reliably informed he hasn't been on the forum since 30th July so probably hasn't seen this.

And I am not sticking up for him. I would just like to hear his side of the story, that is all. This thread paints a very bad picture of someone who I wouldn't have thought would be capable of pulling such a stunt. Hopefully you can understand why I would ask the question "what the ****" after reading this thread.

I appreciate where your coming from Ben in regards to the wtf as we can all appreciate this is not a good situation all around, I just didn't agree with the shame on you all comment

I don't know marc so might be an idea if someone who knows him contacts him and let's him know about the thread in the hope of him possibly coming on and telling his version of events

I absoloutely agree that the other side should be heard, and that for one moment was never in question and to his credit Frank has said the same thing

I will re iterate my point once more though, just to be clear, as why's, wherefores and maybes are not the issue here, the fact that it's fake IS.
Everyone makes mistakes, it's how we deal with the mistake that is the measure of the man we are.

The fact that the sellers response was caveat emptor " tough mate" was what I was getting at and shows extremely poor form, the facts were my point and as such reason does not come into it at that juncture, hence my point that autopsies come after, but do the decent thing and refund. It is just not fair for anyone to just put forward caveat emptor, irrespective of who they are or their reputation.
If it was me I would refund, I'm sure if it was Frank he would refund, and I'm sure if it was you, you would also refund.

Mr-shifter said:

Michael Sith said:

Proven fake....won't refund...what's to be perturbed about?

It's not about the person, their reputation, or people's experiences whether friends or acquaintances etc it's a fake, needs to be refunded, autopsies.can come afterwards IMO.

Facts and reputations should not be blurred, opinions, conjecture, hearsay, etc are not the points of fact, if the item is fake that's the point of fact. It's very poor form to put forward caveat emptor, or translated "tough mate" surely that in itself severely damages a reputation.

If it was me, I would say " really sorry, looks like I've been duped in the first instance I will sort it with you"

Just my opinion

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Michael, you surprise me.

Whilst I don't disagree with what you say, it very much surprises me that as the forums usual voice of reason, that you wouldn't like to hear the other side of the story, because there is always a different perspective or opinion. Who knows, maybe even fact.

I am not for one second suggesting that what frank is saying is not damning, but unlike most of the rest of this thread I do not feel in a position to pass judgement until I have heard from all of the parties concerned, just as any fair court in the country.

This thread started as a watch out thread about more fakes in the mailer world, and has quickly decended into a witch hunt.

None of you know all of what has happened here, because Marc hasnt given his account. I don't know, but I would like to know why Marc won't give a refund before deciding what I think of him, as I have known him personally for a while and this is very out of character. None of you have met him, spent time with him, yet so quick to judge without all the facts. Shame on you all.

Frank, I sincerely hope you and Marc can sort this out. It doesn't really have anything to do with anyone else and I hate seeing friends fall out with each other. There has been far too much of this recently in what is in reality a very small community.

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