Reproduction Weapons

Scouttroper74 said:

At the end of the day it is up to the individual how they want to collect and no one should be forced to collect in a specific way or made to feel an outcast in the community because they do so.
Nevertheless, I do recognise that there is a problem when unscrupulous sellers try to pawn off repros to unknowing newbie collectors, especially as they are getting harder to distinguish. It's a shame that the repro's can't be made with some distinguising mark or molding to identify them as such. that would go a long way to healing the divisions in our community and please the purists and more flexible collectors alike.

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I totally get that there are old and young collectors alike, that are not as well off, who love the Star Wars Trilogy and toy line and who want to collect the figures, but who can not afford to buy a blue black Princess blaster for £60, a solid black Endor blaster or imperial blaster for £100 or a pop-up Lightsaber for £200 - and for them the reproduction serves a valuable purpose. Who are we to deny them that right?

The issue here though is not the genuine honest collectors who are doing that but the people who are knowingly trying to pass off modern reproductions as originals. There are plenty of examples on eBay at the moment or even in the links I posted above of people knowingly or unknowingly re-selling these Blasters as originals, and here in lies the problem with the latest batch of floating Repro. They are designed with one thing in mind - to deceive. If you're going to buy Repro buy the old Repro from the 90s that was designed as a placeholder before the Internet was around when people wanted an accessory but didn't believe the real ones existed anymore.

Scouttroper74 said:

A big part of the problem is people who sell the original weapons for prohibitively high prices and the people who are willing to buy them for these prices. It just opens up a bigger market for sellers of repro weapons as many people are priced out of the market and head towards repros to 'complete' their collection. At the end of the day, you are always going to have some people who will shell out stupid money for a tiny bit of 30 year old plastic and many people who will maintain a demand for a 6 month/1 year old bit of tiny plastic to finish off their figure.

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If you put a reproduction weapon with a figure to complete that figure in my opinion that is not a complete figure surely it would only be complete if it had the item it was originaly supplied with.

People keep referring to original weapons as 30 year old bits of plastic and yes it's all 30-40 year old pieces of plastic but if that's all it means to you then I don't think this hobby is for you. people pay millions for art but it's just wood and paper to me becouse I don't care for it. So I don't buy it.

If you put a reproduction weapon with a figure to complete that figure in my opinion that is not a complete figure surely it would only be complete if it had the item it was originaly supplied with.

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That may be the case in some people's opinion (I actually share your opinion- for me it's not complete) But who are we to define what a collector thinks is a 'complete' figure? Each to their own.

people keep referring to original weapons as 30 year old bits of plastic and yes it's all 30-40 year old pieces of plastic but if that's all it means to you then I don't think this hobby is for you. people pay millions for art but it's just wood and paper to me becouse I don't care for it. So I don't buy it.

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To me the original weapons are 30-40 year old pieces of plastic...valuable, yes, important, yes, but not worth £10-£100. So i totally get why collectors might want repros. Again each to their own. For me Star Wars collecting is not a hobby, It's a way of life, since I was 8 years old. . If people want to collect genuine vintage Star Wars figures with repro weapons then IMHO I think this hobby/way of life is definitely for them.

The issue here though is not the genuine honest collectors who are doing that but the people who are knowingly trying to pass off modern reproductions as originals. There are plenty of examples on eBay at the moment or even in the links I posted above of people knowingly or unknowingly re-selling these Blasters as originals, and here in lies the problem with the latest batch of floating Repro. They are designed with one thing in mind - to deceive. If you're going to buy Repro buy the old Repro from the 90s that was designed as a placeholder before the Internet was around when people wanted an accessory but didn't believe the real ones existed anymore.

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Agreed. I think the majority of sellers that I've come across are honest about repro weapons, but of course as you mention there are scammers out there who need to be named and shamed. That's why I love sites like this and The Imperial Gunnery so that collectors new and old can be educated as to what is 'vintage' and what is 'repro' and can then make an informed choice when they shop for figures and accessories.

The key to this is, as with all things, is education, research, listening to opinion and then making an informed decision

The OP has shown initially some insight by asking the question In the first place.

You can only do what's right for you in the end.

As a slight aside I read on the Rebelscum forum - UK buying - of two members buying Repro stickers for vehicles. No one challenged them over this - I don't post on there as I dislike the attitude on there. I can only feel it contributes to the same problem that has been mentioned in this thread.

Scouttroper74 said:

If you put a reproduction weapon with a figure to complete that figure in my opinion that is not a complete figure surely it would only be complete if it had the item it was originaly supplied with.

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That may be the case in some people's opinion (I actually share your opinion- for me it's not complete) But who are we to define what a collector thinks is a 'complete' figure? Each to their own.

people keep referring to original weapons as 30 year old bits of plastic and yes it's all 30-40 year old pieces of plastic but if that's all it means to you then I don't think this hobby is for you. people pay millions for art but it's just wood and paper to me becouse I don't care for it. So I don't buy it.

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To me the original weapons are 30-40 year old pieces of plastic...valuable, yes, important, yes, but not worth £10-£100. So i totally get why collectors might want repros. Again each to their own. For me Star Wars collecting is not a hobby, It's a way of life, since I was 8 years old. . If people want to collect genuine vintage Star Wars figures with repro weapons then IMHO I think this hobby/way of life is definitely for them.

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Opinion ? Its not a matter of opinion . It's a statement of fact , you either have a complete vintage figure or you don't . There is no grey area or opinion . If you have a loose vintage figure and you attach repro weapons to them they are still incomplete.

Opinion ? Its not a matter of opinion . It's a statement of fact , you either have a complete vintage figure or you don't . There is no grey area or opinion . If you have a loose vintage figure and you attach repro weapons to them they are still incomplete.

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No, they are 'incomplete' according to your opinion. Not in the opinion of all collectors. Not everyone wants to collect as you say ' a complete VINTAGE figure', but merely a 'complete figure' ( a vintage figure albiet with a repro weapon). I never stated that a VINTAGE figure with a REPRO weapon is a 'complete VINTAGE figure'. Merely that it is a 'complete' figure in the eyes of many collectors. If that satisfies a collector, then who are we to tell them how to collect.

Let's back away from repro Star Wars for just a minute and look at this from a wider collecting perspective. If you own a classic car and refurbish it with modern made parts, you may be able to say you own that classic car but it is not complete and original, and owners of the same car with all original parts are certainly not going to measure your car the same as they would their own. This isn't an opinion, the modern parts might be better, or more importantly for some, cheaper, but what you have is fundamentally not an original complete example.

If you want to buy repro for whatever reason, that's your decision, but it's not because it is complete 'in your eyes'. You've made a value judgement and decided you'd rather not spend out on original parts, that isn't right or wrong, just your decision. Satisfaction of the collector is one thing, but you can't change the definition of complete to suit any given situation. As Chris said, complete is a statement of fact

If you want to buy repro for whatever reason, that's your decision, but it's not because it is complete 'in your eyes'. You've made a value judgement and decided you'd rather not spend out on original parts, that isn't right or wrong, just your decision. Satisfaction of the collector is one thing, but you can't change the definition of complete to suit any given situation. As Chris said, complete is a statement of fact

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Well, you can change the definition of 'complete' to suit a given situation. It is either a Vintage figure 'complete' with a vintage weapon. Or a vintage figure 'complete' with a repro weapon. Both figures are 'complete'' because they both come with an accessory (genuine vintage or repro). Personally, I would rather have a complete figure with a 'vintage' weapon and would avoid purchasing repro, but that is not the point. And how many Vintage cars out there still have all/ 100% of their constituent parts from the body/interior right down to the engine components compared to when they rolled off the factory floor? By your definition of 'complete' then these vintage cars are not 'complete' either.

Complete means having the necessary/appropriate parts. You are trying to change a defintion that isn't changeable. A vintage figure with the right vintage weapon/accessory is complete. A vintage figure with a repro weapon is not. You can write 'complete' next to it but that is a misuse of the word. A Star Wars figure is only complete if all components are vintage. Very few classic cars have 100% original parts, some do though, and they are the most prized as they are nearest to factory spec. If one stamp in a collection of a hundred is a photocopy, is it still a complete collection? No, it's 99% complete with a photocopy. In all my time collecting, I have never heard the definition of a complete figure to be anything other than: the original figure complete with all original accessories. I've never once seen this be open to interpretation.

Very few classic cars have 100% original parts, some do though

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Really!!!? 100%!!!? I'm doubtful. To be functional and road worthy in 2018 that vintage car will have had some part changed or modified to comply with modern driving standards and safety regulations. It could even just be the smallest 'nut or bolt' and then by your definition of 'complete' there are no 'complete' vintage cars out there in existence. At some point over the years that vintage car would have been taken to a garage and had something replaced or changed. It is no longer 'complete'.
Going even further with your argument and taking it back to vintage star wars figures; is a figure that is a beater with paint rubs really complete? After all, paint that was part of the figure when it came out of the factory is no longer a part of that figure. So even if it has the original weapon, it must still be in your definition 'not complete'.

Cars of course by their nature require a lot more changes than a vintage figure ever will. Members of classic car clubs are fastidious in changing parts out for genuine old stock, the goal is to keep everything as original as is possible. I concede this was a poor parallel, my apologies. With loose Star Wars though, I think there is a consideration to be made for two factors, Condition and State of Completion. If you have for example a Han Solo Bespin figure with his original vintage weapon, then that figure is complete, regardless of any paint that may have worn off the figure. He is however, on a Condition level, imperfect. Same as a vintage book. If it has all the pages, but the cover is beaten, the book is still complete but imperfect. If it is missing a page, it isn't complete. If the page has been photocopied from another copy and stuck in, the text itself may be complete, but it's presented form is not. For me, completion and condition are not the same thing.

This is not a vintage car its a star wars figure and the 2 require a very different mentality as a car wont even move without a great number of parts to make it operate i cant see a comparison.

There is no justification for reproduction weapons its a lazy mans collection. No effort in obtaining the pieces they want other than a buy it now on ebay for £1 great effort. I cant imagine the feeling you get to complete the figure with a buy it now £1 click on ebay some people are easily satisfied id rather go a year with nothing and save for 1 figure i need and appreciate it.

It's not like you couldn't flip these items for the same if not more the increase in value has gone stupid i just dont understand these arguments.

I'm simply supporting an earlier comment that complete is a statement of fact when it comes to Star Wars, it isn't open for interpretation. We know which toys were released and what each toy came with, essentially what the complete form looked like. You either have the figure/vehicle/play-set complete, or you don't.

This is not a vintage car its a star wars figure and the 2 require a very different mentality as a car wont even move without a great number of parts to make it operate i cant see a comparison.

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Well there is a comparison if you want the definition of 'complete' to include all the 'original' parts. Of course a star wars figure cannot be compared to a vintage car! It's the definition that is being compared, not the object.

Using the term; 'lazy mans collection' is not helpful when describing the collection habits of people who don't have the funds or time to search out genuine vintage parts for their figure. They are every bit a valuable member of the collecting community as anyone else. Having an opinion on repro is fine and not wanting any of it in one's collection is fine. But i'd like to encourage more people into the community rather than turn people away or judge them because they buy repro. Tackle the problem of repro by going after the people who try to pass it off as real and educating everyone in the community as to what is genuine and what is fake. At the end of the day collect how you want and most important of all enjoy it.

I'm simply supporting an earlier comment that complete is a statement of fact when it comes to Star Wars, it isn't open for interpretation. We know which toys were released and what each toy came with, essentially what the complete form looked like. You either have the figure/vehicle/play-set complete, or you don't.

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The definition of what is 'complete' is in fact open to interpretation. What you are arguing for is the definition of a 'complete' VINTAGE figure. If you are stating that a 'complete' VINTAGE figure is only complete Vintage if it has its original accessory then I actually agree.

I am indeed arguing this in the specific case of vintage Star Wars. I agree that in other cases, complete could be more open...
I think your last point is really interesting. Anyone should be welcome to collect, on any budget. For those starting out, or not able to purchase originals, would it not be better to kit out your figs with modern Star Wars accessories, and as many of the seasoned posters here council, be patient and collect original vintage gradually. A complete line might take decades to get, but if you love it, then that's the charm. I see thousands of POTF2, Saga Collection and other modern stuff at car boots/fairs/charity shops for pennies.

This way, you get a temporary display accessory while you search out originals, and repro makers don't get any money. You also end up with genuine Star War accessories, which even though modern can be sold on later. I completely understand that some collectors on a budget really want the weapon to look as close to original as possible, but if you feel that strongly, you should save and get the original. I think that's the bit that hurts us all the most. It's the same love for Star Wars that makes people buy repro as makes us buy original. It just has the horrible side effect of damaging the community overall.

It's the same love for Star Wars that makes people buy repro as makes us buy original.

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Exactly! That's why I don't want more seasoned collectors such as ourselves to look down on people who buy repro. Hate the people who try to pass it off as genuine and not the people who buy because they are passionate about Star Wars and collecting Vintage Star Wars. For them it will 'complete' their figure. For others like us, it will not. Repros are most likely here to stay. Most of them up to 2015 have been very easy for the seasoned collector to spot. However, i'm more worried about the recent batch of Imperial, Rebel and Leia blasters that are extremely close to the originals.

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't look down on people who buy repro. I resent the fact that their eagerness to collect destroys something I've loved for a long time. If you truly love collecting these old toys, there shouldn't be a time frame. There are always going to be new collectors who get duped, and that sucks. I think that if you seriously collect anything, you have to read as much as you can to educate yourself and the modern internet is truly great for this. I think the more worrying trait is collectors who knowingly buy repro and don't care. This coupled with the ever better forgeries you mentioned only makes things worse. I think it's also the reason a lot of collectors are dropping such huge sums for tiny weapons and accessories, they feel it's now or never, and are honestly just so sick and tired of the endless fakes that they will pay any cost to get what they want.