Competition Etiquette

I have seen a few examples recently of competition for items driving up prices. There were a few good examples in the last Vectis auction, people paying way over what most people would consider reasonable prices to get their hands on an item they needed. This got me thinking about collecting etiquette for my own collection.

I am currently focusing on four main runs. Two of them, I was very late to the party on, I know that. So I have no problem seeing other more 'deserving' collectors getting their hands on things before me, in fact I'm pleased to see them make progress on their runs.

On the other hand, for the other two runs I'm doing, I'm almost certain that I was the first person to try and do them, and I know for a fact that I did the majority of the research for them. The only public information you will find on the internet about them was by me. So for these, I admit I do feel slightly miffed that other people have jumped on the bandwagon and have managed to pick up pieces that I haven't managed to find yet.

Does this make me a bit jealous and even greedy? Yes, probably. However I put all the effort in to doing the research and made it public rather than keeping it to myself, and as above I love seeing colloectors complete runs they have put a lot of effort in to, and this goes for others as well as myself.

So are there any rules when it comes to competing on scarce items that more than one person wants? Do you just throw money at it so you get the item at all costs? Should you have a responsibility to help the person who did all the research you have benefited from complete their set first? Or is all fair in love and Star Wars?

And although I won't go in to specifics or name names, I would like to give a big thanks to the people who have helped me find pieces for these runs. I really appreciate it, and it's something I'm sure other people could vouch I often return the favour for, I think it's very important to collectively help keep an eye out for things others are looking for.

I don't collect expensive or rare pieces but there have been occasions where on this forum through chatting pm wise with other members that a card and bubble for example were on eBay that I wanted for my 20 back reseal run, and another member was watching the same item, so I didn't bid, not the same thing really but comes down to decency really and doing the right thing.
In regard to items out there in the wild/ eBay though there will be people that want to pick up items not for their collection but to make a quick buck on a flip, you can't legislate for that!

Agree though Edd, if someone has done a ton of research they should really have first call, but that's about networking and discussing with likeminded collectors, there will always be someone outside that who will steam in though and throw cash at things, which invariably pushes prices up.
Personally I would always help out if I could and gladly assist in anyway I could, as further down the line you yourself will be on the receiving end of someone helping you out.
I think when it comes to auctions and the like though like Vectis, you are at the mercy of human nature and unfortunately there will always be those out there trying to sweep up to make a buck.

The all encompassing 'Don't be a dick' rule doesn't seem to count for much anymore, particularly if someone wants something.

I don't know mate, maybe it's because I've been around a little longer now but I seem to see a lot more ruthlessness than I used to.
Maybe it was always there and I just didn't notice?

I know I try and give people the heads up where possible if I spot something they want (or I think they want) and if I sell an item and I know someone that would like it I try and let them have first refusal.

If someone has done a ton of research on something you would like to think that they would get the heads up on items they need but I think many people simply couldn't give a ****. It's quite sad really

I agree with the above 2 thoughts on this matter and I would also try to help someone out if I knew it was their main thing for collecting. I think if it's someone you know who has deciding to collect the same thing based on your research then that is a bit off in my opinion and I would feel a little annoyed also. If though it's just someone else outside of your friends then there's really not much that can be done about that unfortunately.

In the past I've made a decision to collect something and either I've just got in there before it suddenly explodes with interest or I've arrived way to late to the party and had to pay a higher price to move the collection forward. I'm not sure why this happens sometimes that other people suddenly get the same idea at the same time to start collecting the same thing, maybe a new article has just come out on it that we've all read. It's hard to say but there always seems to be interest in anything vintage these days.

As for paying a high price for something, I think that's up to how much you really want it and if you have enough spare cash around to do it. I've just paid through the nose for something that I really hope arrives but I've had enough of looking for it. I suspect the moment it arrives 3 will turn up for sale at a much better price but I felt it was time to finally pull the trigger and stop the hunt for my own sanity lol! My patience with collecting only goes so far at times before I cave in and I've certainly been burnt before with this but I'll have to wait and see if it was the right thing to do this time. I think if you're going to spend more money than you're happy to live with, then you may never get the satisfaction out of the item but it really depends on how long you can wait for another to come along.

Best of luck with whatever you do decide though and you shouldn't feel bad for being irritated that others have jumped onto your idea, it seems to be the way of the world unfortunately but I find that good things come to those that truly deserve it

Ian

Thats a great point

It is frustrating when you are looking for a certain item, and there does come a point where you pull the trigger, as with all things in life, when deciding to pull that trigger you have to weigh up " if this comes up later down the line at a cheaper price will I regret paying what I have" if the answer is no, I want it and comfortable with the price I've paid, then happy days no regrets.

Again that's why this forum is such a fantastic place, you " meet" so many genuine people on here that are like minded and will help out where they can with each other, I have tried to help where I can and have been helped out by so many great guys on here.

As Carl says Edd, you should not feel bad for the frustration you feel, life can be unfair and a bugger sometimes, but it's swings and roundabouts, the trick is not to let things grind you down, and not to let the negatives outweigh the positives, you can't legislate for the crappy stuff but you can rest assured that there are decent like minded people out there that will help out in a heartbeat, definitely outweighs all the muppets out there!!

I agree with the comments made above, however sadly all too often it seems that no good deed goes unpunished. Sharing your research shouldn't have to be viewed as a mistake, as you are helping to increase the knowledge of the community as a whole, but it does inevitably also draw attention to the items you're highlighting, and risks sparking interest in the same things from others.

I think it's also worth saying of course that whoever beat you to the punch on the items you were after may indeed (and probably were) aware of it / them because of your research, which has got to suck if so. However, unless you definitely know it not to be the case, there is also of course always the possibility that they quite independently and coincidentally decided to buy the very thing you wanted. If so, it doesn't help your collection, but at least you wouldn't feel like you've shot yourself in the foot quite so much by being kind enough to share your research before your collection / run was completed.

When I restarted my collecting and joined the forum I was told the best way to secure the rare pieces I desired was through relationships with other collectors. I didn't have time to make friends as that can take years so I just got on with buying and found I could buy the majority of what I wanted with no contacts. I am happy to help people who help me but I have not met many people who are as in most instances we are in competition with each other.

I can see Edd's frustration in posting information that other people use against him but the only way to combat that is to not post and keep the information to yourself. I am particularly interested in rarity (opportunity to call me an investor) but there is little to no information on MOC rarity so you have to read other people's posts to try to gather as much information as you can. I am not sure of any other way of doing this.

I presume the catalyst for this post is the sale of the 45C LXW as I know you have a LXW focus, I don't think you can own a character focus so just because you start collecting it first does not mean other collectors will clear a path for you. I think your collecting of Jedi MOC's (I presume both 45C and 65 back) with Trilogo bubbles is much more specific and if someone was to collect the same then I can understand your grievance.

Buying Etiquette sounds like a great idea but when there are only 5 known examples or less then you are asking people not to buy something that they may not get the opportunity to buy again for years or ever, so I can't see that happening.

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

olisuds said:

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

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A new collector chasing after a rare piece does not result in a big price increase as for this too happen two collectors must be willing to pay in excess of its value at an auction at the same time.

Wreck-It Ralph said:

olisuds said:

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

Click to expand...

A new collector chasing after a rare piece does not result in a big price increase as for this too happen two collectors must be willing to pay in excess of its value at an auction at the same time.

Click to expand...

Of course it does. The initial collector could have won the item at a significantly lower price if the 2nd collector hadn't bid it up.

I think you are wrongly assuming that the final price is the market value and that both collectors aren't willing to pay more than it's worth.

There is a big difference between being willing to go higher and having to. You don't always expect to pay your maximum bid every time.

I have sometimes spoken with a collector competing on the same thing and made a gentleman's agreement for one of us to not bid to avoid the other paying far more than it's worth.

But my point was about sharing info that ends up being detrimental to the collector. I know there are big Palitoy collectors that wont share pictures of particular runs because it just highlights the rare pieces they are missing that other collectors will chase after.

The short answer is there is none, etiquette when it comes to buying things. Unless it's someone you know well, a collecting friend. It's very cutthroat these days, people are essentially selfish and will try to get what they want. Also I think there is definitely trends and people copying others in this hobby, jumping on the band wagon. Whether it's certain Mocs or oddball stuff or whatever. I saw a Luke Bespin with the trilogo bubble for auction on silly money the other day and thought of you Edd. Weirdly I couldn't help thinking - I wonder if everyone's after those now?! (because of you). I have to admit I'm at the point with Facebook now where the mentality is really turning me off wanting to collect. Some people are such arseholes and I've had a couple of run ins lately. All this claiming and trying to grab stuff before it's even for sale. When you're talking about rarish, valuable items it's unlikely they are going to go under the radar, ever. It is and always was a competition to acquire them, regardless of who started the run or came up with the idea first.

Hi Edd,
I think its an issue worthy of discussion. The biggest change in recent years has been the rise in the number of new collectors into the hobby. I suspect unfortunately that the days of gentelmans agreements not to bid for the same items may have gone. People probably dont place any value on who has done the research and are driven by 'thats mine as its part of my run'. Its similar to the issue of focus collecting and army building I raised recently.

That being said perhaps you have benefited over the years from being open about your collection, and what items you are looking for, as other collectors have helped you out. I hope from a personal point of view that the last Vectis auction was a one off and that you can finish your runs.

Hang on, the seller deserves a fair market place. If two of you want it, you bid till one of you hits the price the other wouldn't pay. That's the point of auctions. If you rig it, then the seller is ripped off.

If you don't like that - offer a proper fair price for it outside the auction process.

But the point of auction sites is... auctioning.

UKS said:

Hang on, the seller deserves a fair market place. If two of you want it, you bid till one of you hits the price the other wouldn't pay. That's the point of auctions. If you rig it, then the seller is ripped off.

If you don't like that - offer a proper fair price for it outside the auction process.

But the point of auction sites is... auctioning.

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I agree to a point, but if your someone in the hobby that is good friends with fellow collectors, your not going to bid against each other. My wife buys me items for birthdays and Christmas and I often check that we are not bidding on the same item when its around those times. If their is only two people bidding on an item and they are friends and one backs off, thats the risk you take with auctioning something.

olisuds said:

Wreck-It Ralph said:

olisuds said:

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

Click to expand...

A new collector chasing after a rare piece does not result in a big price increase as for this too happen two collectors must be willing to pay in excess of its value at an auction at the same time.

Click to expand...

Of course it does. The initial collector could have won the item at a significantly lower price if the 2nd collector hadn't bid it up.

I think you are wrongly assuming that the final price is the market value and that both collectors aren't willing to pay more than it's worth.

There is a big difference between being willing to go higher and having to. You don't always expect to pay your maximum bid every time.

I have sometimes spoken with a collector competing on the same thing and made a gentleman's agreement for one of us to not bid to avoid the other paying far more than it's worth.

But my point was about sharing info that ends up being detrimental to the collector. I know there are big Palitoy collectors that wont share pictures of particular runs because it just highlights the rare pieces they are missing that other collectors will chase after.

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Have you deleted your 45b rarity list from the forum?

The idea of a gentleman's agreement where one does not bid against the other sounds idyllic but when it comes to really rare items then you have got to be getting something in return. If you want the really rare items then you have to accept a level of resistance and competition unless collecting is a popularity contest for you. If someone wants me to duck in an Auction then they have to give me a good reason for doing so.

That's simply a reflection on life and human nature.
The comradery that's built up in the collecting world is what initiates that "stepping back" as down the road the favour will be returned, as in life you reap what you sow.
Amassing a collection of rare Mocs/items as has been said previously, if that's for an investment and return at some point there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. For the collector that is passionate about the hobby on the other hand and is not collecting simply for investment, then their investment also encompasses research, networking with likeminded collectors, patience, having fun, "stepping back" when that feels the right thing to do out of deference to the fact you actually know that person has spent a period of time giving back to the hobby with sharing knowledge and helping out, and you know they want that item.

Robstyley said:

The short answer is there is none, etiquette when it comes to buying things. Unless it's someone you know well, a collecting friend. It's very cutthroat these days, people are essentially selfish and will try to get what they want. Also I think there is definitely trends and people copying others in this hobby, jumping on the band wagon. Whether it's certain Mocs or oddball stuff or whatever. I saw a Luke Bespin with the trilogo bubble for auction on silly money the other day and thought of you Edd. Weirdly I couldn't help thinking - I wonder if everyone's after those now?! (because of you). I have to admit I'm at the point with Facebook now where the mentality is really turning me off wanting to collect. Some people are such arseholes and I've had a couple of run ins lately. All this claiming and trying to grab stuff before it's even for sale. When you're talking about rarish, valuable items it's unlikely they are going to go under the radar, ever. It is and always was a competition to acquire them, regardless of who started the run or came up with the idea first.

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I wouldn't leave collecting because of the way other people act as sometimes you have to accept the market has changed and maybe those collectors act that way as they are just a product of their environment.

"Do not try and bend the spoon, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

I read all the time that collecting is not as fun as it it used to be in the good old days and new collectors just aren't the same as old collectors. And while I certainly agree that the rise of Facebook has led to a different type of collector and a lot of showboating I just try to scroll on by.

In addition I feel for you Edd in your predicament as it means you start to get squeezed out of a market you helped to create interest in. But aside from an agreement with friends and other well known collectors who may be aware of your focus I'm not sure you can expect a sense of entitlement to pieces just because you did the research.

I'm doing a lot of research into loose figures at the moment (not quite the same I know) and I look at it as power gives me knowledge. I can pick up more harder to find stuff at a reasonable price rather than what the market dictates. I picked up and pieced together a complete Poch Yoda for around £40. Market dictates that its worth £180. More if you buy off a certain Spanish variant group.

What I'm trying to say is you have to look at it as you had a good run on your own. You picked up loads of items at the same price as a normal trilogo. The guys coming after you are all now competing with one another driving up prices. To complete the run is going to be much pricier than when you trailblazed it. It just means the last couple of pieces are going to be a little harder and maybe a bit pricier.

But you like a challenge Edd and you're tenacious, so you'll pick up the pieces eventually at the right price.

Wreck-It Ralph said:

olisuds said:

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

Click to expand...

A new collector chasing after a rare piece does not result in a big price increase as for this too happen two collectors must be willing to pay in excess of its value at an auction at the same time.

Click to expand...

Fair point but It does raise buyer expectations though and there are lots of examples of the second example selling for way less than the first.