MOC Rarity

Is there anywhere on the Forum or anywhere else where I could find information on MOC Rarity as in numbers known to exist or perceived rarity for different MOC cardbacks. Since the 45A 2-1B sold recently I have heard collectors saying it was one of 3 known to exist, is this sort of information available to all or does it just reside in certain collectors heads?

It is largely in collectors heads. If you focus or collect a line like 45Bs you tend to know what is hard to find and what isn't through contacts and hunting.

The Meccano/Trilogo handbook has rarity of tri logo cards, and old threads on RS used to list what was known on some Kenner cards but it's a huge undertaking to put all the different lines together. If you are after something seemingly innocuous like a 21B that is really hard to find you are unlikely to want that knowledge public - as we saw with the Singapore C3P0 a few years ago as soon as the knowledge is out there the scalpers move in to make a fast buck.

spoons said:

It is largely in collectors heads. If you focus or collect a line like 45Bs you tend to know what is hard to find and what isn't through contacts and hunting.

The Meccano/Trilogo handbook has rarity of tri logo cards, and old threads on RS used to list what was known on some Kenner cards but it's a huge undertaking to put all the different lines together. If you are after something seemingly innocuous like a 21B that is really hard to find you are unlikely to want that knowledge public - as we saw with the Singapore C3P0 a few years ago as soon as the knowledge is out there the scalpers move in to make a fast buck.

Click to expand...

So if you collect lines like I do then the only way to determine what is rare and what isn't is to physically collect it or take what you can from other collectors posts that currently collect it?

What was the Singapore C3PO?

Wreck-It Ralph said:

spoons said:

It is largely in collectors heads. If you focus or collect a line like 45Bs you tend to know what is hard to find and what isn't through contacts and hunting.

The Meccano/Trilogo handbook has rarity of tri logo cards, and old threads on RS used to list what was known on some Kenner cards but it's a huge undertaking to put all the different lines together. If you are after something seemingly innocuous like a 21B that is really hard to find you are unlikely to want that knowledge public - as we saw with the Singapore C3P0 a few years ago as soon as the knowledge is out there the scalpers move in to make a fast buck.

Click to expand...

So if you collect lines like I do then the only way to determine what is rare and what isn't is to physically collect it or take what you can from other collectors posts that currently collect it?

What was the Singapore C3PO?

Click to expand...

Yes, how else do you learn about anything other thna reading what others say?

You could take it upon yourself to compile the information and make a website to put the information out there for everyone to use and learn from - much as I did for die cast (see my signature)

These resources dont write themselves and as I said above very few people would know the rarity of every line. No one person knows it all.

The C3P0 was a previously unknown Kenner release but hunted down by Bill Cable. There were a few people after one and one guy bought all known examples to flip them later, to the detriment of the hobby IMO.

http://blog.theswca.com/2018/05/

You now know two very rare MOCs thats got to be a good start for 'Wreck It Ralph's Rare Releases' website

Good luck

A C-3PO that was not believed to exist until one appeared on ebay. The seller was contacted and another 5 or so were unearthed

spoons said:

Wreck-It Ralph said:

spoons said:

It is largely in collectors heads. If you focus or collect a line like 45Bs you tend to know what is hard to find and what isn't through contacts and hunting.

The Meccano/Trilogo handbook has rarity of tri logo cards, and old threads on RS used to list what was known on some Kenner cards but it's a huge undertaking to put all the different lines together. If you are after something seemingly innocuous like a 21B that is really hard to find you are unlikely to want that knowledge public - as we saw with the Singapore C3P0 a few years ago as soon as the knowledge is out there the scalpers move in to make a fast buck.

Click to expand...

So if you collect lines like I do then the only way to determine what is rare and what isn't is to physically collect it or take what you can from other collectors posts that currently collect it?

What was the Singapore C3PO?

Click to expand...

Yes, how else do you learn about anything other thna reading what others say?

You could take it upon yourself to compile the information and make a website to put the information out there for everyone to use and learn from - much as I did for die cast (see my signature)

These resources dont write themselves and as I said above very few people would know the rarity of every line. No one person knows it all.

The C3P0 was a previously unknown Kenner release but hunted down by Bill Cable. There were a few people after one and one guy bought all known examples to flip them later, to the detriment of the hobby IMO.

http://blog.theswca.com/2018/05/

You now know two very rare MOCs thats got to be a good start for 'Wreck It Ralph's Rare Releases' website

Good luck

Click to expand...

Rare examples is one thing, known examples is another and I have no idea where you get that info from. I was hoping to get the information I needed by standing on the shoulders of giants but in this case that doesn't seem to be possible.

Thanks for the responses and help.

I now know that 45a 2-1b is a one of three item. Before Max told me that in advance of the auction I had a figure of around £3-350 in mind and another collecting friend said £500 plus. Even once I knew the rarity I would never have guessed the value.
Most of my knowledge on rare items is through little conversations like that and also reading about the 45a Kenner Threepio find.

Unfortunately for the really rare stuff there simply isn't a Wiki with a list, it takes time and luck to find out much of it.

The more you immerse yourself in the hobby the more you learn, that's the brilliant thing about this forum, networking with other collectors that become "friends" researching, sharing knowledge and all collectors no matter how seasoned they are will learn something new every day.
There is no blueprint to sit and reference and pull together a collection full of rarities, most collectors are committed and passionate about what they collect and as they journey through this crazy vintage world they will spot something or come accross a certain moc that " switches a light on" and makes it their "thing".
It's impossible to come up with "the perfect" collection as it's all about personal preference.For that very reason the passion and addiction of collecting is a different world to trying to put together a collection of the rarest Mocs.
There are collectors out there for sure with items that they don't publicise and the fact they own it in their collection is good enough for them and it may be many years before that certain item comes to light if ever.
That's the Beauty of collecting, it's never ending

lejackal said:

I now know that 45a 2-1b is a one of three item. Before Max told me that in advance of the auction I had a figure of around £3-350 in mind and another collecting friend said £500 plus. Even once I knew the rarity I would never have guessed the value.
Most of my knowledge on rare items is through little conversations like that and also reading about the 45a Kenner Threepio find.

Unfortunately for the really rare stuff there simply isn't a Wiki with a list, it takes time and luck to find out much of it.

Click to expand...

I was expecting the 45A 2-1B to go for 4-5K but even I was shocked to see it sell for over 8K. I knew it was rare but I didn't realise there were only 3 known examples as this information was kept from me until after the auction. No one mentioned the 2-1B sale to me not that I would expect them to as I am in competition with them so it is not in their interests.

Michael Sith said:

The more you immerse yourself in the hobby the more you learn, that's the brilliant thing about this forum, networking with other collectors that become "friends" researching, sharing knowledge and all collectors no matter how seasoned they are will learn something new every day.
There is no blueprint to sit and reference and pull together a collection full of rarities, most collectors are committed and passionate about what they collect and as they journey through this crazy vintage world they will spot something or come accross a certain moc that " switches a light on" and makes it their "thing".
It's impossible to come up with "the perfect" collection as it's all about personal preference.For that very reason the passion and addiction of collecting is a different world to trying to put together a collection of the rarest Mocs.
There are collectors out there for sure with items that they don't publicise and the fact they own it in their collection is good enough for them and it may be many years before that certain item comes to light if ever.
That's the Beauty of collecting, it's never ending

Click to expand...

Presently I am collecting 12 to 45b so I am not just after the rare items I want all MOC's produced on those cardbacks, I only want to know the rarity so I know which ones will be expensive and what items to prioritise as If possible I like to buy the rare items first.

The problem with going for the rare items first, is that they are termed rare for a reason and so it is unlikely, depending on degree of rarity, that the rares could be bought first. Unless of course you just didn't buy anything until you had all the rare.

Rare does not also equate to more expensive. That's more down to demand, the depth of the pockets and willingness to dig deep.

There are many 45a for example that are rarer than that 21b. But when they were sold the demand and type of demand was not there, so the price didn't reach the same level.

Also rarity changes, not just from time to time, but from person to person. This is because so much of our understanding of rarity comes from collectors' own, personal experience.

All anyone can give you is what their experience is. And that's never likely to be absolute.

Wreck-It Ralph said:

I was expecting the 45A 2-1B to go for 4-5K but even I was shocked to see it sell for over 8K. I knew it was rare but I didn't realise there were only 3 known examples as this information was kept from me until after the auction. No one mentioned the 2-1B sale to me not that I would expect them to as I am in competition with them so it is not in their interests.

Click to expand...

How was it 'kept from you'? There isnt some inner circle you have to penetrate to get access to the secret scrolls of rarity - it just comes from years of collecting, chatting and researching.

4-5k was expected, but 8k a surprise? I think people pick numbers out of thin air to be surprised at these days! Both sets of numbers are mental imo.

sith-smith said:

The problem with going for the rare items first, is that they are termed rare for a reason and so it is unlikely, depending on degree of rarity, that the rares could be bought first. Unless of course you just didn't buy anything until you had all the rare.

Rare does not also equate to more expensive. That's more down to demand, the depth of the pockets and willingness to dig deep.

There are many 45a for example that are rarer than that 21b. But when they were sold the demand and type of demand was not there, so the price didn't reach the same level.

Also rarity changes, not just from time to time, but from person to person. This is because so much of our understanding of rarity comes from collectors' own, personal experience.

All anyone can give you is what their experience is. And that's never likely to be absolute.

Click to expand...

Picking up the rare pieces first is a preference but like you say it doesn't happen that way so inevitably you get the more common pieces first unless you buy a collection and you get a mixture of both.

I doubt anyone will be giving me any rarity lists any time soon which is fine as I wouldn't expect them too so I will have to develop my own for anything new I collect.

maxf said:

Wreck-It Ralph said:

I was expecting the 45A 2-1B to go for 4-5K but even I was shocked to see it sell for over 8K. I knew it was rare but I didn't realise there were only 3 known examples as this information was kept from me until after the auction. No one mentioned the 2-1B sale to me not that I would expect them to as I am in competition with them so it is not in their interests.

Click to expand...

How was it 'kept from you'? There isnt some inner circle you have to penetrate to get access to the secret scrolls of rarity - it just comes from years of collecting, chatting and researching.

4-5k was expected, but 8k a surprise? I think people pick numbers out of thin air to be surprised at these days! Both sets of numbers are mental imo.

Click to expand...

I knew the 45A 2-1B was rare I just did not know how rare as in how many examples were known to exist, I was told this after the auction, maybe that information was in the public domain before I just wasn't aware of it. The subject of rarity are closely held secrets by many, this sort of information is not generally shared.

Is 4-5K a lot for something that only 3 are known to exist when a 21 Back Fett sells for more and they are plentiful?

Wreck-It Ralph said:

maxf said:

Wreck-It Ralph said:

I was expecting the 45A 2-1B to go for 4-5K but even I was shocked to see it sell for over 8K. I knew it was rare but I didn't realise there were only 3 known examples as this information was kept from me until after the auction. No one mentioned the 2-1B sale to me not that I would expect them to as I am in competition with them so it is not in their interests.

Click to expand...

How was it 'kept from you'? There isnt some inner circle you have to penetrate to get access to the secret scrolls of rarity - it just comes from years of collecting, chatting and researching.

4-5k was expected, but 8k a surprise? I think people pick numbers out of thin air to be surprised at these days! Both sets of numbers are mental imo.

Click to expand...

I knew the 45A 2-1B was rare I just did not know how rare as in how many examples were known to exist, I was told this after the auction, maybe that information was in the public domain before I just wasn't aware of it. The subject of rarity are closely held secrets by many, this sort of information is not generally shared.

Is 4-5K a lot for something that only 3 are known to exist when a 21 Back Fett sells for more and they are plentiful?

Click to expand...

Rarity isnt a closely held secret at all - people just dont shout about it because frankly its boring to always be going on about how rare something is and how many 'exist'. There are so many forgotten collections and also private collectors where these items might be, that any numbers placed are just a guess based on the known sales... who knows what was sold in the 1990s at memorabilia etc, or at modellers loft or any of the other defunct shops. I'll wager all of the 'rarity' numbers would be proven wrong if we had perfect visibility.

On the 2-1b, it's a lot more niche than a 21bk fett which ticks so many more boxes for the vast majority of collectors - so I'm not surprised a fett goes for more.

The only reliable numbers to go on are graded population reports, and they only cover the relatively small number that have been graded by that company. Nobody knows how many of anything actually exists, it's all complete guesswork. There are probably very few, if any one of a kinds as these were mass produced toys, they made thousands of them. And it's easy to forget that as above, the collections you see publicly are only a small fraction of what's out there.

I'll also echo that rarity often is not reflected by value. For something to be valuable, lots of people have to want it. There are plenty of rare things that nobody wants and are therefore worthless. It took me 5 years to find the last Kenner Sport Stars figure I needed for my 1991 Spurs collection. It cost me £8 when I eventually found it

maxf said:

Wreck-It Ralph said:

maxf said:

How was it 'kept from you'? There isnt some inner circle you have to penetrate to get access to the secret scrolls of rarity - it just comes from years of collecting, chatting and researching.

4-5k was expected, but 8k a surprise? I think people pick numbers out of thin air to be surprised at these days! Both sets of numbers are mental imo.

Click to expand...

I knew the 45A 2-1B was rare I just did not know how rare as in how many examples were known to exist, I was told this after the auction, maybe that information was in the public domain before I just wasn't aware of it. The subject of rarity are closely held secrets by many, this sort of information is not generally shared.

Is 4-5K a lot for something that only 3 are known to exist when a 21 Back Fett sells for more and they are plentiful?

Click to expand...

Rarity isnt a closely held secret at all - people just dont shout about it because frankly its boring to always be going on about how rare something is and how many 'exist'. There are so many forgotten collections and also private collectors where these items might be, that any numbers placed are just a guess based on the known sales... who knows what was sold in the 1990s at memorabilia etc, or at modellers loft or any of the other defunct shops. I'll wager all of the 'rarity' numbers would be proven wrong if we had perfect visibility.

On the 2-1b, it's a lot more niche than a 21bk fett which ticks so many more boxes for the vast majority of collectors - so I'm not surprised a fett goes for more.

Click to expand...

Rarity maybe boring to you but it's not to me and even when I ask about it I hear nothing. We will never have perfect visibility so all I am interested in is how many are thought to exist now or how rare something is perceived to be.

Just because something is Niche does not mean it can't be expensive as the 45A 2-1B proves. Some people would say a 12 Back Telescopic Ben is Niche but it does not stop it from commanding huge money!

The 21b v 21 Fett is a good example of how rarity is not always the deciding factor in value.

The Fett is a very popular piece and demand for one is high among many collectors willing to pay a high price.

The same is true of the DT Ben.

They maybe niche, but it's a much larger niche than the 21b fills.

The 21b is rarer than a 30b Fett, but you can almost guarantee the demand for the 30b is higher and consequently the price will be.

A rarity list will only ever be a brief snapshot into someone's experience which can be rendered out of date in a short period of time.

Take the Palitoy VCJ as an example. There were none for long then most of us have been collecting. Then there was 1 and then within a few years there's like half a dozen or so.

Rarity is a difficult thing around which to base your collecting.

If you're collecting from 12-45b, then the for you, the ones you haven't got are going to be the rarer ones, within the context of your collecting.

I know that doesn't help much in knowing where you're likely to be spending more money, but as I think several of us have said, rarity is not always the key.

Wreck-It Ralph said:

even when I ask about it I hear nothing.

Click to expand...

Is that really true? I'm sure you've asked me about rarity before and I've been quite open with what I know... same for others. Aren't there even threads on here about rarity with loads of replies?

I don't think rarity is a secret at all - it's just that most people don't post about it, and if they do there are so many areas to cover that it might not give what you want anyway.

sith-smith said:

Also rarity changes, not just from time to time, but from person to person. This is because so much of our understanding of rarity comes from collectors' own, personal experience.

All anyone can give you is what their experience is. And that's never likely to be absolute.

Click to expand...

Gary has hit the nail on the head. Only a couple of years into collecting I picked up 2 30 back Luke X Wings from two different sources within a few months. I thought Luke X Wing 30 backs must have been common!

I have a good understanding of what's rare and what isn't but it is only through 20+ years of collecting experience, following auctions, networking and retaining that genuine interest and excitement in Palitoy that has provided that inner knowledge. I still get a massive thrill from seeing new pieces out there even though I've been priced out of the market for the highly publicised stuff and no chance of acquiring them. Every time there's a sale it goes into the old memory bank and somehow sticks, just in case another crosses my path.