Jason Joiner's claims/supporting evidence & Toni's defense:
Followed by Toni's first reply:Jason Joiner wrote:Thats correct they came from Arthur Bailie he bought around 25,000 figures bubbles and cards i was in on the deal and tried to buy the lot of Arthur but lost out to Toni , i think Toni bought them for around £10K , i know at one point Arthur was trying to buy figures as he had cards but no figures to put on them , what i really wanted was a set of the cards unused for myself but that never happened, i used to see Toni place ads in model mart though out the 90s and early 2000s selling these figures, he said to me once that he had found a way t heat the bubbles and attach them to the cards in the same way they did at the factory i think he may have even gone to a factory to have them put on the cards, i have never really gone for these German cards as i felt they were not relay finished figures, somewhere have a complete brake down of all the cards , there was also around 2000 carded figures that came in at the same time as Arthur bought the cards , i bought 500 carded hoth troopers on ROTJ cards and also around 700 Boba fett figures on ROTJ cards also , i sold the 700 to Crage Steven's a collator in Romford who when he got them opened them all that was around 1988 ish i think ? anyway there you go some more history
The following is part of the original list Jason Joiner said proved the existence of unused cards/bubbles and figures which was handwritten by Arthur Bailey, the dealer that Toni bought from.TOYTONI wrote:Several friends have contacted me regarding a post by a certain Jason Joiner and having read his "story" I feel its necessary to reply.
This story is mainly fantasy with a few facts thrown in.
As a one time major dealer and expert in Star Wars it is bizarre that after some 25 years Mr Joiner should now come up with this "information" out of the blue!
I have been dealing in many different types of vintage toys for over 30 years including Star Wars for about 25 years . Ive been on Ebay since 1998 and have had 2 websites Toytoni and Zoomertoys running for the last 16 years. I have not seen or had any communication with Mr Joiner for the best of 20 years nor have I heard of him making such comments elsewhere.
I did indeed buy various toys from a dealer called Arthur in the 80s and early 90s these included tin toys , robots, TV related and carded Star Wars figures. He had a reputation for getting old stock and had good contacts in the regular toy trade. He was one of several dealers that I bought carded Star Wars from. He seemed a nice guy who seemed always short of cash and often offered items which he didn't exactly have but could get his hands on if he could make the sale in advance .So at times it wasn't clear if he actually had the goods or just new a man who had them .
I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised I never saw any or was offered any samples from him . I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo non of which came in trade boxes - in those days there wasn't that much interest in carded figures let alone in the outer boxes.
The fact that there was this list stirred up some gossip at the time about unused cards but as to whether they existed is unknown. Mr Joiner claims there were many thousands and yet he couldn't get his hands on a single example from this Arthur dealer despite buying 500 carded Hothtroopers ? and a staggering 700 carded Fetts???- what utter nonsense !He claims the Fetts were then mysteriously taken off the cards - why would someone cut up 700 carded Fetts - more nonsense- we really are in the realms of fantasy here . What happened to the 500 carded hothtroopers? Where are these 1000s of factory cards? Mr Joiners assertions that I was claiming I was going to some factory to get bubbles sealed is total fantasy .
Arthur on several occasions told me that he thoroughly disliked Mr Joiner ( as did many others- normally mild mannered guys threatening him with physical violence on several occasions at toyfairs ) so its highly unlikely that he exactly would confide in him about the details of what he had, what he kept and who he sold what to who.
I suppose it is possible that he had been offered unused cards or even had some but I have completely lost touch with Arthur since he went on to other things and have had no contact with him for over 10 years.
I hope this clarifies things if any one has any general questions Im happy to reply but please dont expect me to remember details of exactly who did or said what over 20 years ago!.
As far as the seal on the General Mills and Palitoys- its generally accepted that most Palitoy Esb and Rotj have smooth seals as do the German issues which were made in the UK .
As far as ESB style bubbles on ROTJ cards is concerned this is also not that unusual although rectangular bubbles are the norm ESB style bubbles were used on ROTJ cards both Palitoy/German and Kenner .I hope that clarifies those points .
The handwriting on the list matches a business document that Arthur had written on and signed for a company "Xceptional Limited":
Both Arthur and Toni were listed as directors of Xceptional Limited however Toni had this to say about his involvement in that company:
Since that last comment was posted Toni has not commented on the thread however he has recently replied to Jason Smith via email:TOYTONI wrote:Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.
While he doesn't deny or admit anything, he does seem to be apologising to the community.mr_palitoy wrote:His (TT) response about 20 mins ago:-
"hi Jason I got you previous email and I do totally understand you comments .These items are important to collectors and mean a lot to them . I am sorry about what is happening in that community .Basically Im overwhelemed by all this .regards Toni"
It came to light that Toni has an active second ebay account which he uses to purchase mint (sometimes "off the card" mint) figures as well as U graded figures.
The ebay ID history shows that Toni's second account name has been changed 30 times.
Mattias noted a few flaws on the unused Palitoy backing cards that perfectly match the carded versions sold by Toni.
Bubble observations:M_Rendahl wrote:Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.
I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.
The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.
I have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.
I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu
Chris's write up and pictures of the figures Jason Joiner brought to FF4, these are apparently figures that originally came from ToyToni although as of yet that is not confirmed, it does however appear to show that *someone* at some point in time was trying to perfect the process of sealing a bubble to a card.
Caswellbot wrote:Hi guys, obviously a lot of folk have been down at the FF4 event today but it seems this thread has been romping on. Today was a busy day at Fordingbridge. It was great to meet up with a lot of collectors and talk all things vintage. Jason Joiner brought along some very interesting carded figures which he says were bought by a collector in Coventry who bought them from Toytoni at a toy fair at Donnington Park. Grant (Maulster) may be able to verify this in time as he is in contact with someone who knows the person who alledgedly bought these from Toni. Hopefully he can confirm whether or not what Jason is saying is verifiable.
For now at least, they are proof that someone at some point was definitely trying to seal these cards with limited success. A number of methods have been used of varying qualities. I will try to highlight a few of these methods. There were 17 cards in total and I took photos of nearly all of them. There was also an ESB GM 45 Back Hammerhead which had come clean off the card leaving a bubble (with spray adhesive on it) and a virtually mint cardback which I cant believe I missed photographing although this was 45 min photograph session! I would like to add that of the 17 cards we looked at about 4 looked like they might be ok. The rest were either like frankenstein experiments or near forgeries of the real seal.
Spray Mount - Spray Adhesive Method? ESB Leia General Mills 45 back (Blue Blaster?) Notice the mottled texture under the seal of the bubble indicating the use of a spray adhesive. The back of the card is perfectly flat. It doesnt look like any pressure/ machine was used to bond the bubble to the card.
037 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
038 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
039 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
040 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
041 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
042 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
043 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
Iron Method? Palitoy ROTJ Pale Blue Fett - Palitoy 65 Back - (Printing alignment error on card.) Note the dragging scuffs of the card which move away from the bubble in an upwards diagonal movement. There is also a triangle shaped indent in between the twin stem of the bubble which gave birth to the idea that this may have been done with a normal household iron. (Diagnosis courtesy of Lee Bullock) The puckering around the bubble also suggests uneven heating.
066 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
067 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
068 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
069 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
071 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.
077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
Brush on Adhesive Method? Boba Fett Pale Blue - ROTJ 65 Palitoy Back - The glue looks different on this. It is not speckled/ mottled like the leia and instead looks like it may have been applied with a brush? Its a bit of a messy job as there are traces of glue residue smeared around the cardback. Glue couldnt be used to stick the twin stem area at the bottom so again it looks like an iron was used.
090 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
091 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
093 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
094 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
095 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
Dare I say it, this one looked ok? 2-1-B Metallic Version GM 45 Back. Better cleaner seal which looked crystal clear. The black underneath the card actually looked black. There is also evidence of pressure being applied to the back of the card to seal the card and bubble.
072 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
073 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
074 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
076 by Caswell2009, on Flickr
Please click on any of the photos to enlarge and see the other photos of all the cards.
panastur wrote:Hi Guys,
Here is the result of a previous work i done on the matter.
I checked all my ESB MOC and loose ESB cardback(Palitoy, Parker and Clipper) and i think i found the way to descard, at least, one category of Toni's "Mock-Up".
"Single Stem" bubbles on ESB 45 back cards
All my Palitoy, Parker and Clipper cards, that have or had a "Single Stem" bubble, have those bubble marked with a number from 01 to 015
For example :
"01" and "03" AT-AT Commander, Bespin Security Guard
"02" Cloud Car Pilot
"03" Leia Organa Bespin
"04" Han Solo Original
"012" Death Star Droid
"013" Tie Fighter Pilot
"015" C-3PO Removable Limbs
Again, none of my 50+ cardbacks(ESB45bk) with "Single Stem" Bubble has unmarket bubble. It's also the case with my 7 "single Stem" MOC's.
That strongly makes me suggest that all unmarked "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO'S made by Toni.
Let me know what you think guys...
Oli has high res pictures of all of the figures Toni has recently bought on ebay under his second account and is urging anyone who has bought a carded figure from Toni in the last 30 or so days to contact him with pictures. This is super important and may put the issue to bed if a match is found!
AFA Population report and estimated numbers of figures involved:
Although not a perfect indication of how many figures Toni has sold over the years Lee Gray checked the toygrader website to see the amount of Palitoy and GM figures in circulation that have been graded by AFA.
And to help get a better grasp on the amount of suspect figures out there Jason compiled the following list with the help of Wolfgang:
mr_palitoy wrote:This is the interpreted JJ list with input from me and Wolfgang looking at what is for sale on toytoni.com and the rarity
of palitoy/german ESB figures to better categorise what unused carbacks were in the lot. It's not definitive, but best
educated guess. Cards listed as a single lot which are obviously palitoy/german or clipper/german are split 50/50
in the absence of any other info.
72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
General Mills ESB
563 Han Hoth
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
73* Rebel Commander
70 AT-AT Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
25 Princess Leia
General Mills ROTJ
30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
417 Death Star Droid
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
8 Cloud Car Pilot
*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist