Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Information on variations, weapons, cleaning and repair etc
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panastur
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by panastur »

wbobafett wrote:First post on how spotting some of the originals!

Some German double stem 45 backs have a crescent flaw on the top of the blister seal. These are 100% real as the examples show below (found and used German cradbacks):

Comparison original factory sealed Boba Fett and his loose cardback counterpart:

Image


More loose cardbacks (German 45 backs):

Image

The pictures are taken from Mike_Skywalker and Wolfgang Schlögel. (Fett copyright: MrPalitoy)

Thanks guys....I hope I am free to show them here!


Wolff
Hi Wolff,

That's a good point proving some MOC are genuine. Unfortunately, this flaw don't appears on all "genuine" Double-Stem bubbles.
Also, i have Palitoy ESB 45 back cardbacks with the same seal flaw... maybe made in the same batch.

Image

Very curious... :shock:

JC :D
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by sandtrooper-5 »

45 Palitoy backcard

Image
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

Used german cardbacks (am one short of a full set). Most are off center to the right of the coloured bubble area. A couple are off center to the left and a couple are centered over the bubble.

German Toni MOC double stem 2-1b. So many tells now. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Missing circle at top of bubble. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.
I also have a used 2-1b german cardback with the remains of the double stem bubble still attached, and it is wider than the double stem bubble that Toni uses and is centered to the right
of the coloured bubble area.

German Toni MOC single stem 2-1b. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.

cheers Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

Further german card analysis requested by Wolllf. Bubble width in millimetres followed by distance from left card edge to center point of bubble.

used cardbacks all without english text on the back unless stated

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i’d at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn’t on jj’s list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

TOCs (toni on card with english text on the back)
2-1b double stem 58mm 33mm
2-1b single stem 62mm 34mm


Dengar with iron prints:-

Image

Check out that bubble size. 2 iron prints visible. One to the right of Dengars head, the other over the right hand side of the ESB logo.

:)

cheers Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by wbobafett »

I again checked all the pics I have gathered and searched again the web on FETT on ROTJ 45C!

So this will alll about BOBA FETT ROTJ 45C (Pal)

There is 482 :shock: unused cardbacks on the list that Joiner has posted!

I repost Billy Boys posts from 2003 again!
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809708/

[Billy_Boy]....

Over a decade ago I truly 'struggled' to find the 'almost fabled' Palitoy RotJ 45 back of the 'Tri-logo' (light blue) Boba Fett...BUT now there are quite a few 'out there'!?!
There is a rumoured 'theory' that many of the remaining figures near the demise of Palitoy in the UK, were carded on to any surplus cardback going?! = The 'Tri-logo' Boba Fett variant certainly would 'fit the bill'! = I didn't originally see an example at retail until late 1984 / early '85?!? So how did it end up on the late 1982 / early '83 45 back?

= Palitoy had a Boba Fett on the Tri-logo card too!

Does anyone know where this 'glut' of European 45 backs actually/specifically came from???

Bill



...and:

[Billy_Boy]Sure!...Not ALL German 45 backs are easy to find!

Far from it in fact! BUT just recently a LOT of 'case fresh' examples have been appearing?!

= Can anyone explain to me why? Image

ALL the Palitoy RotJ 45 back 'Tri-logo' Boba Fetts that have only recently appeared seem to be in near 'perfect' condition too?!

= Am I the only collector to find this a little 'odd'? + Does anyone have a 'worn' carded example below 'C8'???

Bill


And that is the same question 10 years later:

Has anyone ever seen a lightblue "trilogo" Fett on a worn ROTJ 45C or 65 back??


I haven't!

What I have found:


1. IRONED FETTS

I still doubt these are connected to the same ones we call Toni's now. These are really sloppy...with no sense for where the bubble belongs...etc!!

What is interesting about those:
A. They probably come from the same batch of loose unused cardbacks!
B. The ironed stuff lacks the potential to hold for ever. A lot of have been falling part!
C. MOST important to me is the fact that also lightblue, so called Trilogo Fetts were used for those!!!

Image


What you can see here is one lifted example (to the right) with clear iron marks and the triangular tab between the stem. I also found two loose cardbacks (RS limelight, Ebay). These are 100% ironed examples. One even has the triangular iron mark present below. Both have the blister sealed waaaay to high (compare to the MOC) and both seem to have lifted easily!

Again: Imo these are not from the same creator of the TT MOCs!


2. LEGIT CARDBACKS

It was hard to find some more loose cardbacks but I have found two! These do both NOT MATCH A SINGLE AFA 90 (= TT MOC). They both only have one sealed brother I have found. And this one has a footer and a waffle pattern!

Image

As you can see on the MOC example the thickness of the seal as well as the position is a match! The Moc is Plaitoy ROTJ 45C unpunched. The part of the blister which has flat contact to the cardback is not sealed fully. It is only sealed were the waffle pattern appears and that is a telltale how the "form" must have looked that heatsealed those in factory.
What also can be seen is the lack of a seal in the middle lower bottom. If we look at the carded example, we can conclude that the footer maybe was a tiny bit to thick and at the very lower bottom prevented a correct seal.
But please decide yourself....all three are a total match IMO.



3. QUESTIONABLE CARDBACKS

On all those other casfresh crads I have found not ONE USED LOOSE CADBACK OR A MOC WITH CREASES, PRICESTICKER etc!

Have a look, there is three types:
(please do not take too much attention to the 3-D shape of the bubble...these are mostly photoshopped to compare the card and position of the blister...all in one and the same level...so everything that is 3-d is off...mostly...LOL)


FIRST TYPE: No Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the inner border of the blister! See the vertical red line!


Image


SECOND TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

Image


THIRD TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the left. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!


Image


On the COOs of those: We have mostly "Trilogo" no coo figures on that (like on the ironed ones!!!). We also have small HK, large HK and Taiwan marked Fetts! Is this normal?? I dont know......


Again, all of those cards above are:
A. Minty Mint
B. Punched but never saw a shop (price sticker). Even thou these cards DO exist UNPUNCHED....see the wffle pattern one!
C. Contain a figure that should have appeared way later (Trilogo Fett) and also match the figure examples that were found on the ironed ones!
D. NOT ONE USED LOOSE OR MOC FROM THOSE IS KNOWN!


Anyone else?? I also find it disturbing that there seemed to be always the use of a "refernece line"

Please dig out your loose cardbacks! I really would love to see a ripped and used double stem....

Wolff

PS: Please excuse my spelling
Last edited by wbobafett on Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by RKW1138 »

The following post was either swept under the carpet or lost in all the noise.
Posted by James Simmonds 10/12/13
I’ve read this thread with great interest and although I haven’t posted much before, I thought I would share my experiences about the topics that have been discussed over the past few days.

I’ve collected Star Wars memorabilia since 1980, firstly as a child and then continuously as a collector since the late 1980s up to the present day. I’ve attended many, many collectors fair (or swap meets as they used to be called in the late 80s), Star Wars conventions and written articles about Star Wars for many fan publications and magazines such as SFX and Model & Collectors Mart. In 1989, I co-wrote ‘The UK Star Wars Memorabilia Guide’ fanzine with fellow collector Stephen Nelmes and that led me to become a writer for the UK Star Wars Fan Club – which is how I first got to know Jason Joiner, who ran the club. I first met him in person at a toy fair in Leicester in 1990 and then at many other events over the next few years. During that time I purchased several items from him and traded a few pieces as well and found Jason to be a great guy who I never had any problems with at all. I even got to see one of the well-known grey limbed Hoth Stormtroopers that Jason had at a fair in Oadby back in 1991. As a result, I can confirm that these figures do exist and are not a fan made pieces. The limbs were the same coloured plastic as those on the AT-AT Driver and not painted like I’ve heard many collectors state over the years.

Anyway, fast forward to 1996 and I’m at one of Jason’s events in Cheshunt with my old school friend Chris (who was also a collector at the time). As I’m looking through what seems like hundreds of carded mini action figures on a stall that belongs to Jason I spy a carded ROTJ Palitoy Boba Fett with a £30 price tag on it. I had to do a double take at the price because even back then that price was bargain for a hard to find mini figure, so I immediately ask to buy it. Instead of handing me the Fett that is on display, the guy behind the stall reaches down and pulls out a small box which he opens up to reveal at least half a dozen or so other carded Palitoy Fetts. He hands me one and I pay for it then I go on my way feeling very happy with my purchase. At that moment I just assumed that they were the remainder of a warehouse find of old stock or something like that. However, later on in the day, I’m back in the dealer room and happen to notice that Jason is now behind his stall. As I wander over to take another look at the carded pieces that he has for sale (I was really tempted to buy an ESB Kenner Luke Bespin that was £60), I overhear the guy running the stall saying to Jason that the Fetts were selling like hot cakes. Jason then proceeded to tell him that the Fetts were made up of unused factory bubbles and cards that had been stuck together recently. Well, you can imagine how shocked I felt and it really put a damper on what was otherwise a fantastic day out. Looking back, I should have asked for my money back at the time because I felt ripped off but there you go.

Over the years, I’ve often wondered how many of the other Fetts sold at this event were still in collectors hands and presumed to be the real deal. Perhaps some of them have even been graded by AFA or UKG? Although I no longer own the figure (I took it off the card a year or so after buying it and gave it to my young cousin when he became interested in Star Wars films following the 1997 re-release) the bubble seal looked fine to me and I would have been none the wiser if I hadn’t have overheard Jason’s conversation. So, maybe the Fetts were left over from the large amount that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread that he sold to fellow collector Craig Stevens? Why weren’t they being sold as cobbled together instead of factory sealed? Perhaps Jason can shed some light on this for me?

Despite this one incident, I still think Jason is a credit to our hobby. Yes, I've heard all of the stories and rumours about him that many others have, but remember that he kept Star Wars fandom in the public eye through the UK fan club and various events at a time when most people just thought that the films and their related toys should be left behind in the 1980s. The vintage hobby would be a different place today without him. So, credit where credit is due.

As far as the Toni thing goes, I’m still on the fence about it. If there has been any post Palitoy assembly of the figures, has anyone considered the possibility that the bubbles have simply been stuck on with some kind of glue? I’ve purchased a few carded Palitoy figures from Toni over the years (they’ve always arrived parcelled up in empty wine boxes) but have never had any reason to query their authenticity. He used to advertise them for sale in Model & Collectors Mart for years so I assumed that he had purchased stacks of them decades ago when Palitoy shut up shop. Back in the late 80s, market stalls in the town I grew up in had cases of the little figures for sale as did many discount shops. Three carded mini figures for £1 anyone? That’s how tri-logo Paploo, Lumat and Emperor found their way into my collection.

Sorry that this post has gone on a bit but I just wanted to share my story with everyone in light has what has transpired over the last few days. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the end.

James.
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by wbobafett »

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

Image

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t65 ... discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

Image

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/view ... &start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!
I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???

3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

Image
Image

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t65 ... discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

I've just had my bobas out for the boys.

There are 2 types of ROTJ 45 back cards for Boba Fett:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

The regular 45C has this on the back right hand corner:-

Image

An the 45CG has an added HG afterwards:-

Image

The cards I have are as follows:-

45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front
45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card (likely to be an early reseal that wasn't attcached very well)
45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

AFA 90 MOC 45C Light Blue unpainted knee with rectangular bubble

All the cards have a red dot next to the Chewbacca on the back of the card apart from the 45CG. They also all have a slight shifting
on the print of the STAR WARS logo on the front of the card apart from the 45CG.

So I think these particular print errors didn't make any impact on whether the cards made it to market or not.

The bubble placement is the same on the suspected Toni's as on the one's which were shop sold, so I don't think
we can read anything into bubble placements on the card/figure combo either.

If you have a 45CG then it's not one of Tonis.

Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

Done some daytime analysis and pictures on my bobas.
2 new things I can see in daylight.

1)price sticker residue on the 45CG
2)iron marks at the top of the card on my suspected opened Toni!

Image

top left - 45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front, price sticker residue
top right - 45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card and iron marks at the top of the card (an early Toni that wasn't attached very well)
bottom left - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
bottom right - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

And this is a picture of my AFA 90 from ESB/ROTJ AFA 90 Palitoy MOC focus

Image

cheers Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

And guess who I bought the boba fett card with iron marks on it from in 2005? Yes, marksing, aka Toni!

I bid on 4 cardbacks:-

You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ESB 45 BACK BOSSK CARDBACK (6007970286)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE BESPIN CARDBACK (6007968883)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 65 BACK DARTH VADER CARDBACK (6007967337)
eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK BOBA FETT CARDBACK (6007966963)

Then when I'm paying for the 3 I won, I get this:-

"?
hi i have another fett card in similar shape are you interested at your bid if so i can send pic toni"

I then pay for the additional boba fett card as well with a cheque for all 4 (Toni doesnt like taking paypal in 2005)

So, there's proof he's selling ironed cards which the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

And the other 3 cards listed above also have iron marks on them and minimal bubble imprint!

:)

Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by mr_palitoy »

The 65 Back Vader is worrying as it isnt on jj's list. But there are 29 graded 65 back Palitoy Darth Vaders on the AFA population report, so I would put this card on this list too in light
of my Darth Vader cardback with iron marks purchased directly from Toni in 2005.

:(

Jason
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by spoons »

wbobafett wrote:
havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!

Image


What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed on!



I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*
Hi Wolff,

I'm guessing that is my Bossk with the small sticker tear below Ages 4 (on the left second row) - is this one you think is suspect?

This is a UK Bossk, with 03 bubble, waffle lines and sticker residue, and I'd be amazed if it was fake despite an offset bubble by a mm or so. The GM stormtrooper I have is definitely a fake and the bubble is offset on that, if that's any help.
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by rob71 »

Here are a few pics of the one and only MOC I bought from Tony, consequently I have nothing else to compare to - this went from him straight to UKG and received a modest 80 before it made its way to me.

Image

Some wear here...
Image

Gap distances between the edge of card to edge of bubble (estimate as its in an acrylic coffin)

Image

No waffle pattern on seal, and what appears to be small air bubbles(?)

Image

Image

Pretty bad ghosting on the figure pictures here - as I say I don't have another 45GM to compare to

Image


Not sure if this adds anything new or helps in any way, or what this says for the validity (or otherwise) of this example - hopefully its useful.
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Re: Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

Post by RKW1138 »

I see the AT-AT driver has the same two dimples at the top of the bubble that wbobafett indicated on two other figures (Bossk & 2-1B. Different bubbles yet the dimples are approx. the same distance from the edge and same angle. Patterns are always good as it means these were produced by the same machine. Whether that machine is legit is still to be proven.

Wbobafett, did you find any more examples?

If we could find shop purchased examples then it would put these in the clear.
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