Woolworths Special Buy 8 Star Wars Figures for 99p Pack Research Findings

[kevlad]

Laurence has catalogued about a dozen sold suspect examples that originated from Jeff, and looks like a further 25 or so that poor Kevin Bletsoe has in his collection (Kevin didn't want to be included in the investigation and I can fully understand why). So that's about 40. How many do you think are pictured in the cardboard box in Jeff's loft photo? I'd say about that amount.

Poor kevin is in the room im holding 23 graded 1 NG ( no grade the pd receipt pack or patient zero ) and i have 6 packs sitting at UKG since May without a decision there is around another 17 of these packs to my knowledge sitting with other collectors and Jeff i believe still has some , i have probably purchased around 10 or 12 directly from Jeff with the rest being purchased from collectors in the community mostly graded.

i have not involved myself in any of the recent research especially Laurances as i am going to remain totally impartial and if the result is that im sitting with the worlds best collection of fakepacks it will evidence what im prepared to do next I will however provide anything or as much i can to the discussion. I have mainly stayed off the facebook forums since the recent research was released to the community due to the number of facebook messages and a few accusations being flung at me around the authenticity of the packs which i will still stand by them unless UKG change there stance on them and the ones they have graded

I have tonight spoken with Jamie and shared then info below but feel more narrative is required so will had where i can to the debate

Lets start with the PD receipt pack purchaed as an ebay Buy it now around the 14th october 2014 which was actually the first sealed pack i picked up on ebay from Jeff i had previouly purchased/won at auction an open 8 pack a few weeks before also from Jeff, i did realise that these differed from the fatter Palitoy printed labels as i had previously over the years probably handled a good dozen open packs over the years i had not handled a sealed 8 pack since march 1986 when i purchased around 10 packs for my brothers birthday on the 26th march

this was different different feel to the plastic 2 tape seals fatter tape first time i had seen the tape that attaches weapons to the inside of bubbles still attached to the weapon in the 8 pack also a woolworths receipt the seller (Jeff) stated he had it in his collection since 2003 bought in a house clearance lot of several of these 8 packs . the two tape seals have not been disturbed or replaced. The receipt inside he states is blank so guesses it was put in when Woolworths were putting together these 8 packs or it may have been folded and slid in the side .

( i am putting this info together from actual email discussions i had with steve at UKG via email) i believe dat the time shinning a torch in that there was possibly faded print but due to the positioning of the tape seals i couldnt get a good look at the llabel due to the way it was rolled i decided that UKG was the best bet for confirming authenticity as apparently thats what we are paying them for not just the nice acrylic case and grade

heres the replies and decision that was taken on that specific pack from UKG

Morning Kev
Yes it arrived safe and sound, been speaking with a couple of people about it to me it is fine and even the cellotape matches as it should and is aged it's self with no signs of tampering the only issue we have is the woolworths receipt inside because it is unheard of but saying that my argument is if woolworths packed these then it could quite easily have been put in there at the store level because obviously Palitoy would not have packed them with woolworths receipt's in but like the 99p stickers are actually woolworths stickers put on the bags....
Its all if's and maybes..... so we need to have a think and chat to some more people provenance and proof is key to collectors as you know so we want it to be right.


"Ok after much deliberation about the Woolworths 8 Pack we have come to a final decision on it. I have spoken with quite a few people and we are willing to case it with a label stating what it is ect but the label will state NO GRADE now we do this with some items that are extremely rare and difficult to say yes or no if there is a slight issue or doubt about something AFA do the same and like I say we have done it a few times now on items.
Basically the issue is the receipt inside and how it got there ect was it done at store level was it done straight after purchase when the tape was new and could have been lifted then sealed straight back up as you can see a lot of people have a lot of arguments about them...
The problem is proving anything as you know.
In my opinion I think it was either done by the store or by a parent when it was originally purchased but the items were never touched then or after.
The store doing it raises a question about why would they put a receipt inside and leave it on the shop floor because stores just don't do that as people could quite easily steal them and come back for a refund because they would have a receipt.

So I think your best option for displaying the piece is to have it done with one of our labels inside still stating what it is, as there is no doubt that it is authentic it is just the question about weather it was opened at some point in store or shortly after, that is the only issue.

so based on the above info the pack was authenticated by UKG "as there is no doubt that it is authentic it is just the question about weather it was opened at some point in store or shortly after, that is the only issue."

I believe this style of 8 packs that followed were authenticated from this point and all came from Jeff apart from the two that Jeff states he received in a trade



12/02/2016 The two packs from another source email message from Jeff following a discussion and asking if he had any others for sale?

Hey Kev!!
Funny you ask as I Just got hold of 2 more woollies pack as a swop deal for some last 17 figures and stuff and there Ok with the later general figures in but will sell them if you want them? £650
Havent seen them in hand yet but ive been looking at the photo the guy sent me i notice that these 2 have a heat seal to the bag ends???
Im assuming that Woolworth's used different bags at that time in different stores around the country ?
Have you got some like that as all mine just had a clean crease?
LMK

i have one of these in my possession and it graded will post pics tomorrow with better light

 

[Nick_IoW]

From what I can tell Kevlad the receipt in question has been identified (by the style used - as the woolworths receipts have changed over the years)) at around the early 2000's.

It unfortunately does not match the designs of the 80s or even 90s style of receipt.

Hopefully this information makes it's way to Steve.

 

[edd_jedi]

Thanks for joining the discussion Kev. It's a shitty situation, and nobody wants to see anyone get scammed.

Firstly, I believe there is now evidence that Woolworth's did not create these packs, Palitoy did. I can't remember exactly where I read that, hopefully Laurence can elaborate. But I do know stickered Special Buy packs have been found from other sources, eg Toy Toni has loads of Bandolier packs still to this day. So I believe UKG's assessment of the pack with the receipt roll in it may be wrong, although I commend them for not giving it a grade.

The second issue is that neither AFA or UKG ever publicly acknowledged mistakingly grading Toy Toni MOCs despite both no longer grading them. Admitting to grading fakes would damage their reputation, so although it would be of massive benefit in this case, I don't hold out much hope of it happening publicly. However, I do believe they no longer grade the suspect 8 packs and that alone speaks volumes even without retracting existing grades.

I do hope we can all get to the bottom of this, and if proven fake you are reimbursed in full.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

2001, the find was in a bungalow in Arboufield nr Reading which was a probate. The loft was to be cleared for woodworm treatment. Everything in it belonged to an old lady who had died. Jeff mentioned to the new owner about various items up there and was given everything or it was to be dumped.

Jeff stated he had it in his collection since 2003 bought in a house clearance lot of several of these 8 packs .

This is the problem with the proverbial 'web of lies', the teller forgets who they've told what to. Jamie is told a massive box full were chanced upon in 2001 for free. Kev is told several were acquired in 2003, bought by Jeff in a clearance lot. The broad strokes of the lie are the same but the specifics have changed.

Kev, I do feel for you, and your story about buying 8 packs for your brother back in '86 gives you a personal connection to this particular toy - and those sort of nostalgic memories are what drive many of us within the hobby. I think you have done the right thing by remaining impartial and seeing how it 'plays out' before deciding what to do. I don't know what you thought when you saw that photo of a box brimming with fresh 8 packs and how that tallys with what Jeff has told you in your personal dealings - but I hope that when all is said and done that you retain some of that nostalgic love that brought you into collecting in the first place.

 

[Nick_IoW]

But I do know stickered Special Buy packs have been found from other sources, eg Toy Toni has loads of Bandolier packs still to this day.

I bought a lot of special buy stuff at the end of the run. It all came from the old "Discount Stores" - there was a small chain here called Gladrags (and other stores on the high streets) that was always dealing in old stock toys and household products. These kinds of stores later disappeared from the high streets with the emergence of the 50p shops in the early 90's.

Anyway, they always had the bandoliers in baggies, minirigs, sy snootles, the potf playpacks and a variety of playsets and vehicles. There was even an imperial shuttle that had 14.99 on - i've never seen one of those since. But one thing I didnt see in any of these shops were the 8pack figures. Personally, I only spotted them in Woolworths bins. The stickers were easy to peel off back then too - I used to peel the 99p and 1.99 stickers off and put the 49p stickers on :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[kevlad]

Firstly, I believe there is now evidence that Woolworth's did not create these packs, Palitoy did. I can't remember exactly where I read that, hopefully Laurence can elaborate. But I do know stickered Special Buy packs have been found from other sources, eg Toy Toni has loads of Bandolier packs still to this day. So I believe UKG's assessment of the pack with the receipt roll in it may be wrong, although I commend them for not giving it a grade.

is it this info Edd i had gathered a few years back when discussing the packs with a Woolworths manager who was around at the time of the original Special Buy sales in Autumn & winter 1985?

"Hi Kevin

Thanks for your emails. Back in 1985 Woolworths pioneered the idea of a 'half price toy sale', which is commonplace today, but was wholly new at the time. With 21% of the toy market at the time (and a rather larger share of cheaper items like action figures), the chain had a dominant market share in the UK and as such the key suppliers were very keen to help, taking the opportunity to clear lumpy, surplus and problem stocks, often to retail at much less than half price. The first of these toy sales was in September 1985, running for the three weeks leading up to half term. Half term traditionally marked the day that Woolworths stores went onto Christmas layout (withdrawing gardening, most home essentials, and vastly expanding the toys offer, and introducing Xmas Decs and Wrapping Paper). It was felt that the Toy Sale at this time would be a useful way of splitting the counter moves involved and attracting lots of extra traffic, with those shoppers hopefully tempted to buy the new Christmas lines at full price while they were visiting. It was such a hit that a further half price toy sale was TV Advertised for December 27th, allowing mainly bulky half price toys to fill the spaces left as the Christmas Decs and Cards sold out. The pattern of Half Toy Sales in September/October and again at the end of December into mid January continued every year into the 2000s.

For what it's worth, virtually none of the toys sold in the sale were from the chain's own stock. The merchandise (much of which we had never stocked) was price established for six weeks in the Luton Arndale at the higher price about three months before the event, but was either delivered pre-packed and priced by the suppliers directly, or more usually through Woolworths' own Distribution Centres in Swindon and Castleton, Rochdale.

On the figure packs you were asking about. From what I remember, Woolworth was Kenner Parker Inc's largest European stockist when that company was spun off in 1985. One of the reasons (as I understand it) that General Mills had decided to ditch those two divisions and float them off separately was because (unusually) they operated sale or return terms on their toys. For the retailer this meant that instead of having to guess how well new character ranges would sell and either run out and lose sales because they under-estimated or land up with a lot dead stock to bury if the character brand bombed, chain stores could order huge quantities in the hope of good sales and then send back any stock they considered to be surplus once the sales pattern (or lack of it) was established. The trouble was that returned sale-or-return stock was often ex-display and many of the items sold on hanging cards would be returned dog-eared around the edges and torn where the hole was for the pegboard hook. (Showing that store staff had pulled them all of the hook at once, when 'universal arms' are designed to reduce shoplifting by forcing you to remove each one individually, otherwise they tear the packaging.

Kenner Parker had launched a new Star Wars range in 1985 to accompany a spin-off animated TV series, with the models tweaked to look like the animated rather than 'real life' characters. The UK had high expectations for the series when it aired, because it had proved popular in the USA, and retailers went heavy on the figures. Sales were OK but not spectacular in the UK, and from what I remember retailers got very uncomfortable when the figures were included in a media storm about new European Toy Safety legislation which was announced in 1985, with a long transitional period leading to enforcement from 1990. Several press reports used the Kenner Parker carded figures as an exemplar of non compliant products. For example:

- they didn't show the importers name and address (a new legal requirement)
- they didn't have a prominent warning about small parts
- they did not clearly state that they presented a choking hazard and were unsuitable for children under 36 months, and should only be used under supervision by pre-schoolers
- etc.

You can imagine how uncomfortable it would be if you were asked 'why are you selling these dangerous toys, Mr Argos? or whatever, even though of course they had simply been manufactured before the regulations were agreed.

As a result Kenner Parker had extremely heavy returns from what Woolworth would call 'the outside trade' (i.e. everyone else), while Woolies kept their nerve and saw sales of their own full-priced stocks rise as other retailers went out of stock.

To cut a long story short, faced with dog-eared packaging that had been criticised in the media, I think Kenner Parker came up with the idea of paying pieceworkers to rip all the figures off the cards and put them in plain packaging, and offered the line to Woolies for the Toy Sale. Despite the low price of your items, Woolworth actually had a > 65% gross margin on the line, and sold all of the stock they could get within a week. The promotion solved a problem for Kenner Parker Inc, earned Woolies some Brownie points for the next season's buying, and gave some lucky kids a great bargain. (The latter always assuming the child was over three, and didn't think the figures were edible.) To be on the safe side, stores were instructed to display a disclaimer ticket in front of the display of figures warning of small parts, the age restriction, and saying the importer's name and address was available on request.

All labelling was done by the supplier. WW calculated that at this time they made 5p extra profit per single if the labels were affixed at source rather than in-store, calculated based on the labour cost of labelling and the shrinkage cost of around 2% of store-priced lines being mis-labelled at the wrong price. (Those items mis-priced didn't sell, while any under-priced rocketed off the shelves but at a loss. This was in the days before barcodes and scanning tills, and was later the justification for retailers moving to that technology.) Any in-store labels were of the little 'Meto' type that supermarkets used on the top of tins. These would look something like this:

+---------------------+
|WOOLWORTHS|
| |
| 304 £2.99 |
+--------------------+

or would be handwritten on was/now roundels, which were red, black and white, with the prices written on in blue or black felt pen or biro.

If I had to guess, I would think the supplier used an agency like LINPAC or Bill Dance Marketing Services to rework all the returned products. The UK retail trade in this era was notorious for abusing sale or return goods, and basically packing up everything they wanted to be rid of and returning it for credit. Most suppliers junked the stock out and never knew that half of it wasn't even theirs. (For example Northern Leathergoods who supplied Woolworths with handbags did a spot check and had received a dozen lawnmowers and several portable TVs in consignments of returned bags!) If retailers were invited to return surplus Star Wars figures, few would bother to discriminate between those from different suppliers, they would just count it, chuck it in a box, fill out a claim form (in Woolworths case a TD20/RG) and the supplier would automatically be debited for the store calculated cost and selling credit a week later.

For both suppliers and retailers the 'reverse supply chain' is normally 10 to 100 times more expensive to handle goods sending things back than the normal method of receiving bulk deliveries to a warehouse and then shipping them on to stores. As a result the supplier would normally uplift the returns from the retailer's warehouse and take them to a nearby UK stock holding location like an aircraft hanger and then pay an agency to do the re-work there and then send the items straight on to wherever they were going next. (This process was known as 'transhipment', meaning the goods were never put away, just reworked and loaded straight onto another trailer for onward distribution). I am sure you'll see how with this Heath Robinson way of doing things, accessories would inevitably be lost or mismatched, and items from mixed sources would land up being bundled together in the resale packs. The chances are that Kenner Parker Inc had no idea that they had just credited and reworked a stack of their competitors' products, because the agency workers were just foot soldiers dealing with the piecework as fast as they possibly could. A very dull, minimum wage type of job, if you know what I mean, while their managers sat in the office and kept warm, I should think.

Little did any of those worker drones doing the repacking know that twenty years on they would have made some highly collectable toys, and require detective work to understand how one supplier's product could land up in another supplier's box!

I hope this is a joined up, credible explanation. I hope it helps.

I doubt this was the kind of answer you were expecting, but sad to say back in 1986 I was managing a store with the largest turnover on Toys outside central London, and I can remember working late to put the Toy Sale stuff out! I hope it helps anyway"

 

[kevlad]

I don't know what you thought when you saw that photo of a box brimming with fresh 8 packs and how that tallys with what Jeff has told you in your personal dealings - but I hope that when all is said and done that you retain some of that nostalgic love that brought you into collecting in the first place.

Never seen the pic before yesterday I thought is this the box and loft that Jeff kept mentioning in his messages to me ? i always thought up to 2017 that this box was fairly small. this pic was a big surprise. Is this not his parents loft?

"I been to Mums today and promised to go into the loft and find you another 8 pack"

we really need more clarity and evidence around this i would hope that Jeff would have some type of receipt so that he wasnt accussed of removing someone elses property from a house he was going to treat for woodworm so surely documentation to back the find up also something of this magnitude needs provenance i would be asking the family to write a letter to state this, also is there any markings on the box does jeff still have it it could if these have been lying there all time give a date period i.e late 80s to early 90s etc .

still far too many questions

 

[Mr-shifter]

Hi Kevin

Thank you so much for taking the time to come to this forum and share this information with us.

It saddens me, a lot of the tribalism around this issue, but there is an underlying desire from most to learn the truth, nothing more.

I understand it's probably been difficult, given the impact this could have on your collection.

Looking at the information you are sharing, I feel these at vital pieces of this puzzle. Again, thank you for sharing them.

Ben

 

[kevlad]

Just to add further to this puzzle these are the only 2 packs that have that slight difference and Jeffs explanation below in his email this needs more clarity from Jeff . Who did he get these off? If these did come from another source then Jeff isnt the sole source of these packs

12/02/2016 The two packs from another source email message from Jeff following a discussion and asking if he had any others for sale?

Hey Kev!!
Funny you ask as I Just got hold of 2 more woollies pack as a swop deal for some last 17 figures and stuff and there Ok with the later general figures in but will sell them if you want them? £650
Havent seen them in hand yet but ive been looking at the photo the guy sent me i notice that these 2 have a heat seal to the bag ends???
Im assuming that Woolworth's used different bags at that time in different stores around the country ?
Have you got some like that as all mine just had a clean crease?
LMK
then the next email 18/02/2016
They arrived Yesterday and I been meaning to get you a photo of the tops of both bags as they have heat sealed ends? Unlike the ones I had?
Look Legit tho as sticker are the same size ,text etc. and tape firmly sealed.
Will do it when im home later buddy.
I checked these sealed ends out with another guy who has a few and he said that he has seen them like this too, See picture of the one he sent me and see what I mean?
Ta Jeff
i have one of these in my possession and it graded will post pics tomorrow with better light

 

[edd_jedi]

As requested by Kev I have merged the two special buy threads so all the new evidence and discussion is kept in one thread.

 

[momike]

Reading through Kevin's exchange with the ex woolies employee (interesting stuff btw) would seem he pretty much comfirms that the packs were not put together by Woolworths and imo strengthens the fact they were indeed assembled by Palitoy

"For what it's worth, virtually none of the toys sold in the sale were from the chain's own stock. The merchandise (much of which we had never stocked) was price established for six weeks in the Luton Arndale at the higher price about three months before the event, but was either delivered pre-packed and priced by the suppliers directly, or more usually through Woolworths' own Distribution Centres in Swindon and Castleton"

"On the figure packs you were asking about. From what I remember, Woolworth was Kenner Parker Inc's largest European stockist when that company was spun off in 1985. One of the reasons (as I understand it) that General Mills had decided to ditch those two divisions and float them off separately was because (unusually) they operated sale or return terms on their toys"

"To cut a long story short, faced with dog-eared packaging that had been criticised in the media, I think Kenner Parker came up with the idea of paying pieceworkers to rip all the figures off the cards and put them in plain packaging, and offered the line to Woolies for the Toy Sale"

 

[edd_jedi]

is it this info Edd i had gathered a few years back when discussing the packs with a Woolworths manager who was around at the time of the original Special Buy sales in Autumn & winter 1985?

Yes that looks familiar, can't remember where I saw it. This sentence seems to imply the packs were not assembled by Woolworths, therefore there is no reason why one of their receipts should be in a pack:

All labelling was done by the supplier. WW calculated that at this time they made 5p extra profit per single if the labels were affixed at source rather than in-store, calculated based on the labour cost of labelling and the shrinkage cost of around 2% of store-priced lines being mis-labelled at the wrong price. (Those items mis-priced didn't sell, while any under-priced rocketed off the shelves but at a loss. This was in the days before barcodes and scanning tills, and was later the justification for retailers moving to that technology.)

 

[kevlad]

now onto the stuff that we dont know or is unproven from the stories i have been told over the years

okay so Woolworths had two special buy toy sales according to Paul the woolworths manager which was supplied bagged and labelled by Palitoy in the Autumn and winter xmas/new year 1985

All labelling was done by the supplier

The first of these toy sales was in September 1985, running for the three weeks leading up to half term. Half term traditionally marked the day that Woolworths stores went onto Christmas layout (withdrawing gardening, most home essentials, and vastly expanding the toys offer, and introducing Xmas Decs and Wrapping Paper). It was felt that the Toy Sale at this time would be a useful way of splitting the counter moves involved and attracting lots of extra traffic, with those shoppers hopefully tempted to buy the new Christmas lines at full price while they were visiting. It was such a hit that a further half price toy sale was TV Advertised for December 27th, allowing mainly bulky half price toys to fill the spaces left as the Christmas Decs and Cards sold out. The pattern of Half Toy Sales in September/October and again at the end of December into mid January continued every year into the 2000s.

i purchased my packs in March 1986 (brothers birthday march 26 1986) when i purchased some mini riggs & an ewok glider i also purchased a falcon for a crazy low price so stock was still as i remember it on the shelves at that time

Woolworths also reworked stock i have tried to make contact with the two suppliers below linpac & bill dance marketing as they may have supplied packaging/labels etc however have got to a dead end with them

If I had to guess, I would think the supplier used an agency like LINPAC or Bill Dance Marketing Services to rework all the returned products.

My recent discussions with steve at UKG was around at what point did palitoy supply woolworths and the stock was completely depleted and at what point did that supply stop Steve seemed to believe the special buy figures reworked stock went on later than we think possibly into and beyond 1986 i believe that non compliant old stock may still have been getting stripped from cards etc also in the years following and sold off randomly but there numbers would have been really low that they may have been missed

European Toy Safety legislation which was announced in 1985, with a long transitional period leading to enforcement from 1990.

we have now ruled out that Woolworths did not bag and label the figures in store but i have been told several times via different individuals over the years that this did happen again no firm evidence

also i was told that sheets or rolls of Special Buy labels had been found in the 1990s? Anyone here this story is there any evidence been found?

My packs have been authenticated and graded by UKG Steve informed me that he had an open double taped one he picked up in the early 90s as im aware the only double taped ones are the packs i have

I have got an open one in my collection from a car boots sale back in the early 90's double tape with the correct sticker

so alot of missing info evidence along the time line

 

[laurencedyer]

This bag of 17 Action Force figures has been acquired from a former Palitoy Employees daughter amongst other items.
Her mother bought the bag complete with figures which is tied at the top with cloth from the staff shop in Baker Street.

The relevance of this is that of the bag itself.
This is one of the types of bag that was used for the Woolworths 8 packs, fold seal construction which would suggest that Palitoy did themselves have these bags lending more support to Palitoy themselves packing these items.

 

[StarWarsFan]

This bag of 17 Action Force figures has been acquired from a former Palitoy Employees daughter amongst other items.
Her mother bought the bag complete with figures which is tied at the top with cloth from the staff shop in Baker Street.

20181215_172722.jpg

20181215_172049.jpg

20181215_171341.jpg

The relevance of this is that of the bag itself.
This is one of the types of bag that was used for the Woolworths 8 packs, fold seal construction which would suggest that Palitoy did themselves have these bags lending more support to Palitoy themselves packing these items.

20181215_172114.jpg

20181215_172214.jpg

Nice one mate

 

[momike]

Also the same as the bag that the baggies for the endor Chase playpack came in which was a Palitoy produced item also

 

[StarWarsFan]

Also the same as the bag that the baggies for the endor Chase playpack came in which was a Palitoy produced item also

nice

 

[Cardbackkid]

Interesting , thanks for sharing

 

[UKS]

I don't know if this helps or hinders.

I bought multiples of this bag in Fine Fare. I am almost certain of this as the location I bought it (Broadwalk, Knowle, Bristol) had no Woolworths.

I bought them (along with a cheap rancor) before viewing a film at the local cinema. I believe the film may have been a UK rerelease of Fox and the Hound.

This is all from memory so take with a pinch of salt.. but I am pretty sure.

 

[_Lee_]

For what it's worth, virtually none of the toys sold in the sale were from the chain's own stock. The merchandise (much of which we had never stocked) was price established for six weeks in the Luton Arndale at the higher price about three months before the event, but was either delivered pre-packed and priced by the suppliers directly, or more usually through Woolworths' own Distribution Centres in Swindon and Castleton, Rochdale.
"

I can say for sure that I remember seeing stacks of these in the Woolworths in Luton Arndale. It was my number one place for Star Wars, apart from the odd figure from Tesco and CO-OP. I remember they were still available around 88/89 because I can remember going to buy a Metallica 'One' single aswell as W.A.S.P.s 'Real Me' and standing in the queue to pay, as I was looking at stacks of bags and boxes with the Special Buy stickers. I remember joking to my mate that only saddo's still love Star Wars at the time and still collected these. I was into heavy metal, guitars and staring at nude photos of Erika Eliniak and similar women (remember this was pre internet when all was had was our mothers catalogues that always fell open at the lingerie section of my brothers hand me down jazz mags )

Little did I know that 4-5 years after that I would get the buzz again...whilst being engaged to be married...