Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.
- Thread starter Grant_C
- Start date
Captainsolo1978
Jedi Master
No he isn't Moby or the bloke from Doc Savage / The Hills have Eyes
jasdev999
Jedi Master
Palifan
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2012
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- 4,903
jasdev999 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dark Sith Lord
Grand Master
:lol: :lol: :lol:
damn! i give up 
my heads pickled :shock: im going round in circles this morning trying to find a bit of info :? . am i right in saying that little or no palitoy / german gm esb 45backs used or shop sold or loose cards had be found yet with the german writing at the bottom of rear with the english collect all 45 at the top pointing to these have never been sold in any shop due to the conflicting / confusing text in either country ? inturn pointing to them being TT ,is that right?
its just ive seen what to me is a deffo shop sold gm 45bk with english txt at top which has an o3 bubble
my heads pickled :shock: im going round in circles this morning trying to find a bit of info :? . am i right in saying that little or no palitoy / german gm esb 45backs used or shop sold or loose cards had be found yet with the german writing at the bottom of rear with the english collect all 45 at the top pointing to these have never been sold in any shop due to the conflicting / confusing text in either country ? inturn pointing to them being TT ,is that right?its just ive seen what to me is a deffo shop sold gm 45bk with english txt at top which has an o3 bubble
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
jay4 said:damn! i give up
its just ive seen what to me is a deffo shop sold gm 45bk with english txt at top which has an o3 bubble
Most of tonis german cards have the english text on the back, though a few annoyingly do not. There is also evidence of the ones with english text
on the back being shop sold at least in the uk. So some cards with english text were left in the factory after they switched to the card with the text removed.
cheers Jason
ah right cheers jason, that would certainly explain it then
heres a few pics i took of it for reference . tbh it was more the bubble that confused me, as i think TT everytime i see a single stem o3 bubble now, (the bastard :x ). it has the waffled but more like lined seal look , the original owner bought this at glasgow secc in 2007,
ive gave him £35.00 quid for it friday evening ,
heres a few pics i took of it for reference . tbh it was more the bubble that confused me, as i think TT everytime i see a single stem o3 bubble now, (the bastard :x ). it has the waffled but more like lined seal look , the original owner bought this at glasgow secc in 2007,
ive gave him £35.00 quid for it friday evening ,
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
The palitoy 45bs and german cards both used number bubbles, ccp used 02 and 03.
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm
"The single stem bubbles have a number embossed on the bubble in the bottom right hand corner. Certain figures only used certain bubble numbers. Han Solo used 04, Death Star Droid used 02, C-3PO (Removable Limbs) used 015, AT-AT Commander used 01 & 03, Artoo Detoo (R2-D2) (With Sensorscope) used 12, Bespin Security Guard (Black) used 01, TIE Fighter Pilot used 13, Cloud Car Pilot used 02 & 03, Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) used 03, 4-LOM used 13, FX-7 (Medical Droid) used 08, Imperial Commander used 01, Bossk (Bounty Hunter) used 03, Chewbacca used 02, Darth Vader used 08, Luke Skywalker used 04, Ben (Obi-Wan) Kenobi used 04 and Stormtrooper used 03."
cheers Jason
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm
"The single stem bubbles have a number embossed on the bubble in the bottom right hand corner. Certain figures only used certain bubble numbers. Han Solo used 04, Death Star Droid used 02, C-3PO (Removable Limbs) used 015, AT-AT Commander used 01 & 03, Artoo Detoo (R2-D2) (With Sensorscope) used 12, Bespin Security Guard (Black) used 01, TIE Fighter Pilot used 13, Cloud Car Pilot used 02 & 03, Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) used 03, 4-LOM used 13, FX-7 (Medical Droid) used 08, Imperial Commander used 01, Bossk (Bounty Hunter) used 03, Chewbacca used 02, Darth Vader used 08, Luke Skywalker used 04, Ben (Obi-Wan) Kenobi used 04 and Stormtrooper used 03."
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Been doing a lot with factory codes from Asia, and the upshot is that all early palitoy cards up to 45A were made in the Kader Industries factory in Hong Kong,
also where Kenner cards were manufactured.
Panastur said this back in October just before Tonigate broke:-
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6311p45-card-back-collectors-thread
This post lists all the important factory codes:-
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1096363-2/
All of the palitoy 41 backs have the same kenner design and the K factory code on them for Kader industries.
And the earlier cards all say made in hong kong and use the same bubble/figures as Kenner cards did. The 12B jawa run for example.
I have updated the guide to reflect this.
Coalville started manufacturing cards with 45B, and continued with 45C, 65B, 65C and 65D, and then TriLogo afterwards.
Tonis stock of unused cards matches this with the exception of 65B. Maybe they used all the Nien Nunb offer cards up before moving to Chewbacca Bandolier strap?
If Toni had any MOCs these are likely to have been assembled Tri-Logo, with unassembled Tr-Logo cards and fragile Tri-Logo bubbles not surviving the iron on
sealing technique, if there were any. (we havent seen an unused tri logo cardback or tri logo cardback with iron marks, so the evidence says no).
All in, this should restore further confidence in the Palitoy collecting community.
cheers Jason
also where Kenner cards were manufactured.
Panastur said this back in October just before Tonigate broke:-
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6311p45-card-back-collectors-thread
This post lists all the important factory codes:-
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1096363-2/
All of the palitoy 41 backs have the same kenner design and the K factory code on them for Kader industries.
And the earlier cards all say made in hong kong and use the same bubble/figures as Kenner cards did. The 12B jawa run for example.
I have updated the guide to reflect this.
Coalville started manufacturing cards with 45B, and continued with 45C, 65B, 65C and 65D, and then TriLogo afterwards.
Tonis stock of unused cards matches this with the exception of 65B. Maybe they used all the Nien Nunb offer cards up before moving to Chewbacca Bandolier strap?
If Toni had any MOCs these are likely to have been assembled Tri-Logo, with unassembled Tr-Logo cards and fragile Tri-Logo bubbles not surviving the iron on
sealing technique, if there were any. (we havent seen an unused tri logo cardback or tri logo cardback with iron marks, so the evidence says no).
All in, this should restore further confidence in the Palitoy collecting community.
cheers Jason
jedisearcher
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,450
Quite amazing how much information is still missing from the communities knowledge of the production era. I'm sure there are brains to be tapped into, but how to find them?
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
I have better categorised the palitoy list and have also figured out which of the two card types the german cards were by looking on toytoni.com on the wayback archive
and using the v punch (with english text) or rounded punch (without text) tell with front only pictures of the cards.
Of the 24 affected ESB German cards, 12 are with english text, and 12 are without english text, so a 50/50 split. So there is no correspondence with Tonis cards
being all with english text as I first thought.
Clipper ESB
72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar
General Mills ESB
563 Han Hoth (without english text)
526 Stormtrooper (without english text)
500* Bossk (without english text)
357 C3PO Removable Limbs (without english text)
320 AT-AT Driver (with english text)
318 Bespin Security Guard Black (with english text)
276 IG88 (without english text)
268 21B (with english text)
194 Han Solo (without english text)
171 R2D2 Sensorscope (without english text)
166 Leia Bespin (with english text)
162 Han Bespin (without english text)
138 Ben Kenobi (without english text)
118 Power Droid (with english text)
90 Cloud Car Pilot (with english text)
85 Yoda (without english text)
73* Rebel Commander (with english text)
70 AT-AT Commander (with english text)
69* Bespin Security Guard White (without english text)
66* Chewbacca (with english text)
50 Leia Hoth (with english text)
36 Rebel Soldier (with english text)
26 FX-7 (with english text)
25 Princess Leia (without english text)
11 R5D4 (with english text)
General Mills ROTJ
30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
Palitoy ESB
500* Bossk (45b back)
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot (45b back)
66* Chewbacca (45b back)
Palitoy ROTJ
1234 C3PO Removable Limbs (65d back)
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper (65d back)
885 Luke Skywalker (45c back)
482 Boba Fett (45c back)
467 Lobot (45c back)
417 Death Star Droid (45c back)
301 21B (45c back)
143 Chewbacca (65d back)
132 Luke Bespin (45c back)
105 Luke Hoth (65d back)
86 Lando Skiff Guard (65c back)
81 Logray 65c back)
60 Squid Head (65c back)
47 Han Solo (45c back)
39 AT-AT Driver (65d back)
31 Gamorrean Guard (65c back)
30 Leia Boussh (65c back)
27 AT-AT Commander (45c back)
12 Yoda (45c back)
8 Cloud Car Pilot (45c back)
*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist
cheers Jason
and using the v punch (with english text) or rounded punch (without text) tell with front only pictures of the cards.
Of the 24 affected ESB German cards, 12 are with english text, and 12 are without english text, so a 50/50 split. So there is no correspondence with Tonis cards
being all with english text as I first thought.
Clipper ESB
72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar
General Mills ESB
563 Han Hoth (without english text)
526 Stormtrooper (without english text)
500* Bossk (without english text)
357 C3PO Removable Limbs (without english text)
320 AT-AT Driver (with english text)
318 Bespin Security Guard Black (with english text)
276 IG88 (without english text)
268 21B (with english text)
194 Han Solo (without english text)
171 R2D2 Sensorscope (without english text)
166 Leia Bespin (with english text)
162 Han Bespin (without english text)
138 Ben Kenobi (without english text)
118 Power Droid (with english text)
90 Cloud Car Pilot (with english text)
85 Yoda (without english text)
73* Rebel Commander (with english text)
70 AT-AT Commander (with english text)
69* Bespin Security Guard White (without english text)
66* Chewbacca (with english text)
50 Leia Hoth (with english text)
36 Rebel Soldier (with english text)
26 FX-7 (with english text)
25 Princess Leia (without english text)
11 R5D4 (with english text)
General Mills ROTJ
30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
Palitoy ESB
500* Bossk (45b back)
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot (45b back)
66* Chewbacca (45b back)
Palitoy ROTJ
1234 C3PO Removable Limbs (65d back)
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper (65d back)
885 Luke Skywalker (45c back)
482 Boba Fett (45c back)
467 Lobot (45c back)
417 Death Star Droid (45c back)
301 21B (45c back)
143 Chewbacca (65d back)
132 Luke Bespin (45c back)
105 Luke Hoth (65d back)
86 Lando Skiff Guard (65c back)
81 Logray 65c back)
60 Squid Head (65c back)
47 Han Solo (45c back)
39 AT-AT Driver (65d back)
31 Gamorrean Guard (65c back)
30 Leia Boussh (65c back)
27 AT-AT Commander (45c back)
12 Yoda (45c back)
8 Cloud Car Pilot (45c back)
*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist
cheers Jason
so did anyone talk to Toni direct in the end ?
or has he disappeared ?
i started to see some of his figures sell on ebay and was listed for the first time as what they really are , well done who ever that was that was honest as said there was doubt with the figures , it was refreshing to see them clearly being listed, they did not go for high numbers so at least the word is getting out there and now people can choose when buying and pay what they feel is fare for this figures.
one amazing thing Toni seems to have gotten away with 100s of 1000s of ponds over the years this was happening yet no one took it further ? that is amazing so its a perfect crime ?
Whats also amazing is that if you find out something like this is happening everyone that has a vested interest in this not being true IE they own some of these figures and have a lot tied up in them, they do not want to here the truth and that is a massive brick wall to breakthrough .
This happened to a fellow collector friend of mine Graham , he was the whistle blower on the fake Harrison Ford autographs a year or so ago , everyone that had bought these turned on him and said he was lying and did not know his stuff, in the end it turned out to be 100% true and it all came out .
so i think to help all collectors out there and to make the hobble safer maybe when someone comes to any forum under there own name and call something out then maybe people should just hold fire till things become more clear that way people will feel more confident to come forward and say some of the things publicly that they may know.
we are all collectors and we are all keep to get things and compete with each other to improve our collections and things can get heated but when it comes to con men and people getting ripped off we should all be on the same side us the collectors against them the crocks.
i am a strong person and i do not leave a batter when it gets hard and i believed in what i was doing and felt it was important to fight for the truth months ago when this started up , but even for me it was a very tuff place to be fighting from a conner when 10s of people calling me out when all i did was say what i knew , that is past now and its out but i would like us all to at least see what happened here and maybe the next person to be a whistle blower might get a better platform to air there worries or fears ? , it can only help the hobby and us all .
i hope you can see the logic in what i am trying to say here and also see its not about me more the next person that feels that they know something that should be in the public domain.
one last thing collection should be fun this was not much fun , i now just plan to going back popping on here from time to time and shearing collecting star wars with fellow collectors
beek luck and keep on finding cool stuff from your child hood
yours
jason
or has he disappeared ?
i started to see some of his figures sell on ebay and was listed for the first time as what they really are , well done who ever that was that was honest as said there was doubt with the figures , it was refreshing to see them clearly being listed, they did not go for high numbers so at least the word is getting out there and now people can choose when buying and pay what they feel is fare for this figures.
one amazing thing Toni seems to have gotten away with 100s of 1000s of ponds over the years this was happening yet no one took it further ? that is amazing so its a perfect crime ?
Whats also amazing is that if you find out something like this is happening everyone that has a vested interest in this not being true IE they own some of these figures and have a lot tied up in them, they do not want to here the truth and that is a massive brick wall to breakthrough .
This happened to a fellow collector friend of mine Graham , he was the whistle blower on the fake Harrison Ford autographs a year or so ago , everyone that had bought these turned on him and said he was lying and did not know his stuff, in the end it turned out to be 100% true and it all came out .
so i think to help all collectors out there and to make the hobble safer maybe when someone comes to any forum under there own name and call something out then maybe people should just hold fire till things become more clear that way people will feel more confident to come forward and say some of the things publicly that they may know.
we are all collectors and we are all keep to get things and compete with each other to improve our collections and things can get heated but when it comes to con men and people getting ripped off we should all be on the same side us the collectors against them the crocks.
i am a strong person and i do not leave a batter when it gets hard and i believed in what i was doing and felt it was important to fight for the truth months ago when this started up , but even for me it was a very tuff place to be fighting from a conner when 10s of people calling me out when all i did was say what i knew , that is past now and its out but i would like us all to at least see what happened here and maybe the next person to be a whistle blower might get a better platform to air there worries or fears ? , it can only help the hobby and us all .
i hope you can see the logic in what i am trying to say here and also see its not about me more the next person that feels that they know something that should be in the public domain.
one last thing collection should be fun this was not much fun , i now just plan to going back popping on here from time to time and shearing collecting star wars with fellow collectors
beek luck and keep on finding cool stuff from your child hood
yours
jason
jedisearcher
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,450
ace said:
Get your popcorn ready! :lol:
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
ace said:
Jason, you have done the collecting community a great service by bringing Tonis actions to light. Having the strength of character
to stay on here when the storm raged in your direction is commendable, and many appreciate you for that.
Personally, I have learnt a great deal about Palitoy and what was made where/when in Coalville and Asia as a result of having
to analyse all of the affected cards. The palitoy guide I have is much larger and broader and a better reflection of what happened
as a result. So good things came out of this for me.
On the down side, I still have a bunch of AFA 90 Tonis that are devalued because of this, but I put this down to my progression
from being a new collector (when I bought these) to where I am now, and it has changed my view on AFA for the better I would say.
So all ine, I prefer where we are in the collecting community now, as to where we were end of November.
All the best
Jason
