Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[tiefighterboy]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

It worries me that even though there has been a vast investigation on behalf of collectors on trying to determine which are these MOCs are suspect, and some success in narrowing the field, it is my concern that if this allegation is true, its 20+ year impact on the market will have had such an influence on MOC figures that we will never be 100% sure. Even with 'the list'.


I'd like to hear what people think would be the best way to move forward. I think all options are valid and should be explored.

Edit: Good stuff Jason- that list is depressing.

I agree with Grants comment above!

I think every avenue should be explored.

 

[lee gray]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

I always thought they had it upside down so the figure would fit more easily because the head is virtually the same shape so less chance of head making dent in bubble. As i stated before i defo purchased one of these from jim stevenson at westminster toy fair in the mid 90s, didnt know the bubble was upside down at the time but the crinkling around the bubble edges just looked ****.

 

[Caswellbot]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

Looking closely Todd, if the bubble was the right way up would it still fit the figure. It looks like the feet would rest on the stem ledge and may not allow enough room at the top for the head??

 

[gonk_from_rs]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Okay, reading further, it sounds like ace was first claiming it was one of his (as in, I thought he was defending it as legitimate), but later he backs off and says he got it from arthur that way. So, in other words, he is not claiming it is legit.

I am trying to figure out if that little black smudge to the right of the rotj logo can be used to identify the batch (or "a" batch) of cardbacks used to create the modern-sealed 65-back hoth troopers. If I can find just ONE confirmed legitimate example of this cardback that has the smudge, I can stop wasting my time with this. So far, many of these 65-back hoth troopers are turning up with this smudge, and they are all either iron-ons (like this one might be), or just unconfirmable. So far, only one person I know about has come forward with a definitely legitimate 65-back hoth trooper, and it does not have the smudge.

 

[escapist]

Toni update. My facebook member from Brighton is still negotiating an exchange of his TOCs for non TOCs and has sent me this email reply he
got from Toni:-

"Just to say Im a normal bloke Im not some Mr Big with a huge empire full of tens of thousands of Star Wars figures distributing them all over the world . I have never sold large numbers of any star wars figure and in some cases were talking from a single example to a handful and with other figures maybe 50 or 60 examples up to perhaps a few hundred examples max - thats it ! I dont have a massive stash of carded figures and any idea that thousands of my figures are circulating around the world is be totally wrong ."

cheers Jason

Right. So 'a few hundred' is not a 'large number' of any Star Wars figure???

 

[gonk_from_rs]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Vernon - does that dust shadow in the middle of the card (the one between the "J" and "E" in the "jedi" logo) go under the bubble? Or is it on top? Or does it just stop at the bubble?

 

[Vernon]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Vernon - does that dust shadow in the middle of the card (the one between the "J" and "E" in the "jedi" logo) go under the bubble? Or is it on top? Or does it just stop at the bubble?

Hi,

It used to go over the bubble until a few days ago when I wiped it off with a cotton bud & water (it doesn't come off the card but was very easy to remove from the bubble).
I always assumed it was a print error so never really studied it.

 

[Vernon]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

Looking closely Todd, if the bubble was the right way up would it still fit the figure. It looks like the feet would rest on the stem ledge and may not allow enough room at the top for the head??

If the bubble was the right way round I don't think the figure would fit.

 

[ace]

hi

the dust line was created by the next carded trooper being placed on top of this one and the card being pushed as close to the bubble as i could at the time to get more of them on the shelf

the dust was from a air vent in the end of my loft at the time and it seemed to be quite grimy ? maybe it was down to the M25 that was right near by , i also remember the cretans getting very dirty in that house also.

anyway i little bit of sherlockolagy there


j

 

[kraftdermacht]

Jason,

50/50 for rebel commander and bsg white for Clipper and GM. Fair enough as far we don't have any further information.

I would do the same for ESB Bossk, 50/50 Palitoy and GM. Toni has the GM Bossk since long.

I did not know about the non-existence of ROTJ Tie Fighter Pilot on 65 back Palitoy.
So keep this as GM. There were only 6 on the list and this is probably the reason why they were
not listed on Toni's web-site. He could have easily sold this low number to people
he offered them directly (not to me )

When you post the update I think this can then also go to the summary thread.

Wolfgang

So it looks like clipper/german for rebel commander and bsg white are a mixture of the two? I'll split them 50/50 for now?

Is the same true for ESB Chewbacca? I think maybe we should assume a 50/50 split between Palitoy and German?

Also, are there any Bossk German?

There are no known ROTJ Tie Fighter Pilot on 65 back for Palitoy, which made me think they must be German? Unless some of the ROTJ are trilogo? (dont really want to go there!)

Awaiting your reply!

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Some nice things posted on RS about us.

To be honest, I think its across all the boards.

One thing the world has learnt- 'Don't mess with Vintage Star Wars Collectors- they will find your old business contracts from 10 years ago and match your handwriting.

From RS-

Josh:

I am grateful to all the people who have been at it since day 1. Running around finding people from days gone bye. Constantly questioning Jason Joiner and trying to get in touch with Toy Toni. Checking their guides. Compiling data etc etc etc etc. I understand none of them fit into the super collector category here, but it's the little guys here who have actually done the hard yards on this one as far as I am concerned.
So good on you little guys. You deserve far more praise than anyone else IMO.
Merry Christmas everyone

Bobbybobs:

Well said Josh. Huge effort by collectors across the spectrum. Also, echoing what Chris just wrote, we'd still be buying pristine MOCs off Toy Toni if it wasn't for the SWFUK guys.

Big thanks to you too for your great sitreps!

Chris Georgoulias:

It was all I could do on this issue to just keep up reading the reams of information that guys like Joe, Jason, and the contingent at SWFUK were digging up at a staggering rate. The SWFUK crowd are the heroes on this subject doing all of the comparisons, putting together lists, correlating data, cross-referencing, and everything else. All of the credit goes to them for sure.

Heck, I don't even have an account over at SWFUK (that acronym still cracks me up) so if someone wants to re-post my comments please feel free. Just to at least get it out there that a lot of weight can't be put on the factory QC aspect. Not sure how much readership crossover there is, but I think that's the main forum for this issue and RS is just for some satellite chatter.

Cheers!

-chris

 

[itfciain]

Christmas is a time of goodwill to all men - maybe Mikey will re-instate us :lol:

 

[bobbybobs]

Christmas is a time of goodwill to all men - maybe Mikey will re-instate us :lol:

How did so many of you blokes get banned from RS???

 

[Grant_C]

Guys,

I have a high court judge visiting my home today. He is a friend of the family. I am getting advice from him on this matter.

If you have any questions please post ASAP as he wont be here for long.

 

[ace]

Some nice things posted on RS about us.

To be honest, I think its across all the boards.

One thing the world has learnt- 'Don't mess with Vintage Star Wars Collectors- they will find your old business contracts from 10 years ago and match your handwriting.

From RS-

Josh:

I am grateful to all the people who have been at it since day 1. Running around finding people from days gone bye. Constantly questioning Jason Joiner and trying to get in touch with Toy Toni. Checking their guides. Compiling data etc etc etc etc. I understand none of them fit into the super collector category here, but it's the little guys here who have actually done the hard yards on this one as far as I am concerned.
So good on you little guys. You deserve far more praise than anyone else IMO.
Merry Christmas everyone

Bobbybobs:

Well said Josh. Huge effort by collectors across the spectrum. Also, echoing what Chris just wrote, we'd still be buying pristine MOCs off Toy Toni if it wasn't for the SWFUK guys.

Big thanks to you too for your great sitreps!

Chris Georgoulias:

It was all I could do on this issue to just keep up reading the reams of information that guys like Joe, Jason, and the contingent at SWFUK were digging up at a staggering rate. The SWFUK crowd are the heroes on this subject doing all of the comparisons, putting together lists, correlating data, cross-referencing, and everything else. All of the credit goes to them for sure.

Heck, I don't even have an account over at SWFUK (that acronym still cracks me up) so if someone wants to re-post my comments please feel free. Just to at least get it out there that a lot of weight can't be put on the factory QC aspect. Not sure how much readership crossover there is, but I think that's the main forum for this issue and RS is just for some satellite chatter.

Cheers!

-chris

i just started up a new thread just me thoughts nothing to do with this CardGate just my observation take a look if you have time guys

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18812&p=262290#p262290

j

 

[ace]

Guys,

I have a high court judge visiting my home today. He is a friend of the family. I am getting advice from him on this matter.

If you have any questions please post ASAP as he wont be here for long.

i think the most important thing its stop this continuing as the damage is still happen innocent new collectors can go to brighton and buy one or more of these figures today right now and i think that really needs to stop .

i never really thought about what he has been doing but its not right how ever you think about it , and what ever we agree to on here not not we all agree there is a lot wrong with all this and we have talked it over but still they are bring sold by Toni and he is not going to stop thats the real worry for me to see this happing to more collects.

i still think taking the findings to the police is the only real thing to do and just give them to CID and let them do what they do for a job , i also thing that each day we could be losing evidence , i dough Toni has unused cards and figures at his house now , that would just be silly
but as time go's on he dose have time to lose more evidence , i think we have all done what we can now but its time to get the people in that know there job .

if what we wanted to achieve was to mone and talk then thats been achieved , but if people out there want to really get to the bottom of all this then the police should be called in , Toni is not going to talk to us on here are you Toni , your are just going to sit back and hope it all just blows over , and he could be right if none of the people that are affected takes it further .

i believe its 100% fraud and its not right the way he has hidden the true origin of what he is selling.

i have never bought figures direct from Toni so i have no comeback to him , the 20 odd figures i do have came from a 3rd party and i paid little and i have no receipt for them so there is nothing more i can do , and in the end i think i would have kept my figures as a pert of this hole story and they do look nice but for the people have paid £100s or even £1000s then you do have comeback and taking advice and talking to the police will help any legal action that may take place and if there is the numbers you could create a class action , i think if the police get involved it will not cost you anything if they can see or think there is a crime, so they government will pay for it for you .

Maulster79 it is a good thing to ask your high court judge friend for advice ? to try to help people that are affected and more importantly people that are going to be affected.

one other thing if this dose get picked up by the police or the courts then the grading companies will have to listen and react properly .

just some thoughts

no off to try to get s Dalek out of the ran thats in my garden as it will not go through the patio doors , i did not messier it before :-0

j

 

[tiefighterboy]

Christmas is a time of goodwill to all men - maybe Mikey will re-instate us :lol:

If this was on RS...some of us would have already been banned for off topic comments :lol: :lol: :lol: ......Quite a shame on us Americans as the only forum with freedom of speech is a UK forum :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Richard_H]

Christmas is a time of goodwill to all men - maybe Mikey will re-instate us :lol:

How did so many of you blokes get banned from RS???

I think the "official" line was harbouring an intense hatred of RS. Unofficially it was more to do with disagreeing with a few posts and guilty by association. Totally OTT.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Christmas is a time of goodwill to all men - maybe Mikey will re-instate us :lol:

How did so many of you blokes get banned from RS???

I think the "official" line was harbouring an intense hatred of RS. Unofficially it was more to do with disagreeing with a few posts and guilty by association. Totally OTT.

Your banned.