Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[indianawars]

Just my humble opinion.
If you brought a crate of apples and a few turned out to be bad, wouldn't you check the rest of the crate first before selling them?
I'm sure that there are a lot more suspect baggies out there, but as most have admitted, they're not baggie experts, so take what they received at face value without any questions. But the ones that did spot the difference were issued refunds and an excuse of, 'Oopsie, I didn't notice.'

 

[Cymonguk]

Jeff came across very well in the interview, and that is part of the problem. However it does raise serious inconsistencies.

1) I don't think he has been making these, it certainly can't be proved.
2) He does seem willing to refund items that are questionable. Again a plus point, but after all this is the MINIMUM we should expect!
3) He claims that he is just selling off his collection, this is not how I understood it, I understood he still actively trades.
4) He says multiple times that he will refund if people can prove to him they are fakes. Whilst I understand where he is coming from (he doesn't want people to return none related items). He then also states that he doesn't agree with Franks view on all of the fakes?
5) He states he hasn't sold any red text baggies, but clearly he has. Was this a purposeful lie? I am not sure tbh, he could have forgotten he had sold them (its something I would do). Even so it would still be the case that he knew they were fakes at the point of sale.
6) Numerous times he points at the fact that people who have bought from him have not returned them as fakes. Now the issue here is that he is the "go to" seller of baggies, so people are going to assume he is a good source. Frank has said in the past that he seems like a good guy, so not only is he a good seller, he is an "endorsed" seller. It would be like me questioning itfciain!
7) He has sold fakes, which he admits to, and ok he has then refunded (this is just obvious surely that he has to do this?). However if, as he states, that this whole set he is selling is his personal collection, that means they have been sat with him for some time? If so when he knew that some he has sold have been fakes why has he not gone through them and checked? After all he admits to having a good set that he can compare too. He admits that he asks Frank about others, yet he has a whole bunch that he has never bothered to check and just sold, effectively hoping they are ok? If he is buying these in from America then it is incumbent on him to verify them. If he has been doing so, and has got it wrong, then his capability as a seller of those items is completely shot.
8) A few times he states that he wants Frank to come to his house and verify all his 500+ figures for him. Whilst I understand his point, why should Frank do this? This is not Frank's business, I don't expect Frank to come to my house and check all my electronic components. Jeff expects Frank to come and spend a day utilising his expertise to convert his stock that is arguably now worthless, due to his own negligence, into valuable stock again. Of course maybe Frank will do this, but even if he did there can be no saying that was all the stock, etc.
9) He asks Frank to do this and then claims that Frank may not have all the answers anyway.
10) For a person who stated that he started collecting the Kenner logo baggies, because he felt they would be the most valuable I really don't understand how those have gone past an inspection process?
11) As a person who has handled hundreds of baggies I am not sure how some of the more dodgy fakes have bypassed him? With physical bag differences, etc, and good/bad examples (in his collection and "fake" box), why are we still in this.

Honestly from the approach from some of the people on here to Frank (who I have never spoken to or had dealings with), if I was him I would probably walk away. Apologise, say I got it wrong, and take everything down. People are questioning Frank's knowledge and understanding, and tbh after giving up personal time, etc, I would be tempted to jack it all in and go for a quieter life.

I will say that the podcast did come across as exonerating him, it may not have been your intention, and maybe due to the lack of prep time you had but it did feel like that.

 

[Grant_C]

Some great points, especially if there is a link for selling red baggies, that would be damaging if it matches up with after Franks emails.

You state that there have been multiple interventions. Fine. Show us. If your sitting on this evidence, just show it. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about the truth. If their is damming evidence, then I'm sure everyone will jump on board with the claims.

I also agree, that selling any fakes is not good enough. Not even one. Everyone has coincided that. The OP states that there is malicious intent to deceive through fraud. Just show that. If these red logo text bags marry up to that, then you've got some cracking evidence.

 

[Richard_H]

I want to be very clear on this. We have not pardoned or exonerated anyone.

We have part of one side of the story here on swfuk
We have part of one side of the story on TVR.

New evidence has come forward from the accusers. This was needed to support a very damning post. I don't understand why it wasn't there in the first place. What I took issue with was the way the OP was presented as 'concrete' but it isn't and some can't see that because they have more info than what is being seen and can't see it like we are.

The red text feedback is good evidence. Solid evidence that some of what Jeff has said is not accurate. We need more evidence like that. Not screenshots of suspect baggies. That fact he sold suspect baggies is not in doubt.

 

[edd_jedi]

There is some more evidence on the way from one of the accusers who has not posted yet. I agree it should have come earlier and preferably in the original post. That's the mistake Frank made and I'm sure he concedes that.

 

[Cymonguk]

I want to be very clear on this. We have not pardoned or exonerated anyone.

We have part of one side of the story here on swfuk
We have part of one side of the story on TVR.

New evidence has come forward from the accusers. This was needed to support a very damning post. I don't understand why it wasn't there in the first place. What I took issue with was the way the OP was presented as 'concrete' but it isn't and some can't see that because they have more info than what is being seen and can't see it like we are.

The red text feedback is good evidence. Solid evidence that some of what Jeff has said is not accurate. We need more evidence like that. Not screenshots of suspect baggies. That fact he sold suspect baggies is not in doubt.

As I said I doubt that the was intention to exonerate, and after a 90 minute call maybe you guys were just trying to tie it up and leave on a good note. I didn't think you did a bad job, given the limitations, so would not attack you for the content within.

 

[Richard_H]

That's fine I understand what you're saying. Not saying we got it right perfectly. Just clarifying our position.

I don't want to waste time defending my/our position any more I think it's been stated enough.

If the evidence was better at the start then you'd have seen a different reaction I'm sure. Let's concentrate on getting the facts out. I'm sure there's a lot more to come and im sure there'll be a part two to the podcast hence the title of the first one.

Our next regular episode will not have any reference to these events.

 

[SublevelStudios]

When referring to the 'red text' baggies, are these the red LABEL baggies? The difference between 'text' and 'label' might be confusing.

 

[edd_jedi]

When referring to the 'red text' baggies, are these the red LABEL baggies? The difference between 'text' and 'label' might be confusing.

No there are two different types, both of which are fake - baggies with Meccano red stickers (these are fake as the label is a different size and the wrong colour.) Jeff has also sold baggies with red stamped COO text on them which according to Frank were never produced.

 

[laurencedyer]

I will add more substance to my inclusion in the coming day's as I have not been well the last week or so but thought it important to add this communication at this current point in time.

Whilst finalising my Baggie run and trying to acquire the last four baggies in December 2015 I was after a Fett and Jeff sent this image of these different Fetts available.
The Big Pick had not long happened and the Vader Case with the never had been seen complete set o ESB - b baggies came to light so naturally I was keen on the Fett.

Jeff had stated in the correspondence below that this was the only one and that he had and that he had had this for over 5 year's but now he has had a supply of illegitimate looking ESB - b Fett baggies for sale this year.

These where never previously in his collection from what he stated so where have they come from?

 

[Richard_H]

When I refer to red text I mean the ones stamped MIHK (or whatever it says) not the red label ones.

 

[Grant_C]

Is there anyway to date the ebay feedback for the red text baggie?

 

[edd_jedi]

No not exactly, but it is over a year old.

 

[lejackal]

You could do a best estimate, find the oldest feedback that you can still see the item, from the last 12 months data get an approximate number per month and then count back. Not ideal but probably the best you do

 

[finestcomics]

Also on the point of 3 out of 150 at FF being questionable, that is consistent with the allegation of 30-40 fakes from the 1000 he supposedly had. I think there could well be more but assuming it is 30-40, that would still mean almost 5% of his stock/collection was fake. Would you accept that from any other well respected, high volume seller?

This is not as bad a ratio to convince me there's as massive a scale of concern. It's good to know nonetheless as this was one of the questions I hadn't heard addressed through a flat count.

On the points about selling them and not seeing what he sells. I'll tell you that baggies don't quite have the cachet and demand, nor do they attract the same detail to attention as other areas of vintage SW collecting. People are far more concerned with the contents being pristine and correct. A discolouring baggie or even faint ink impression on the MHK stamp isn't going to be a deal breaker for most buyers. I'm certain third-party graders will place more emphasis as well on what's inside, observing any openings before they worry about a faint ink impression on a stamp, although I'm sure several of these wouldn't be gradeble just based on the suspicion factor alone. But on one that is washed down to a faint impression, that would be in the territory of masking a tear on an MOC with a price sticker, so these really should be taken out of circulation.

In other collecting areas, collectors would have their backs up on things like overlapping stamps - in coin collecting, restrikes are an area of signficiant concern, and everything is carefully scrutinized. One of my hobbies is to collect sealed content comics - regarded as multipacks. I'm far more interested in the condition of the items inside, but I do pay attention to the condition of the bag. The main thing for me is it has to be 100% sealed and correct. The sequencing of issues inside has to be 100% correct. The bag can have some discolouration, as long as the comics inside are in excelent condition. I've passed on numerous multipacks if any of the sequencing was off, but it never prompted me to call out the sellers even though I would deem the handful I've seen as suspect. I say this knowing this area of collecting probably better than most of my peers in the hobby.

I also can't help but recall the TT's. I remember starting a thread on RS asking about a string on my Hoth Storm Trooper and responses saying it wasn't uncommon for things like lint and string to be found in Palitoy MOC's. The iron marks were such a glaring miss that had been sold and resold for numerous years, but it wasn't until a body of work was publicly shared, zooming in close on the defect that all of a sudden people's awareness of these jumped from nothing to sudden expert.

It's good we have a reference point now for these baggies, and like I said no one has any excuses now. But to rail on the guy for willful ignorance doesn't fly - no one in their right mind wants the headache of dealing with returns, especially on sites like eBay.

 

[lee gray]

The reason the gi joe guy got caught out recently was he had purchased from one member a item that was stained in a particular area then a short time later he sold it sealed and had the same stain so caught red handed.

If just once Jeff resold something that he was told was fake and theres solid proof, then thats that.

I suppose could always get his fingerprints and open up some baggies to see if his fingerprints are on the figures. If you worked for the police. I know it might sound far fetched but who knows.

 

[finestcomics]

No not exactly, but it is over a year old.

I'd hazard to guess that could well be from 2008, as even his first feedback on page 55 shows more than a year ago.

 

[Lindo]

The reason the gi joe guy got caught out recently was he had purchased from one member a item that was stained in a particular area then a short time later he sold it sealed and had the same stain so caught red handed.

If just once Jeff resold something that he was told was fake and theres solid proof, then thats that.

I suppose could always get his fingerprints and open up some baggies to see if his fingerprints are on the figures. If you worked for the police. I know it might sound far fetched but who knows.

sure that would be a waste of police resources mate

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

Another reason I'm not convinced is that I have met Jeff a couple times. I'm sorry Jeff if your reading this, but in all honesty, I found him dizzy, incompetent and a complete scatterbrain. I struggle to believe that he dresses himself in the morning. Even this week he was met to send me a palitoy baggie in the post. I received a Kenner mailer. (I would to trade if anyone has an Ackbar).

I also found him to be open, friendly, happy - so open we can all go to his house and look at his collection- something I have not afforded anyone on this board. I don't see the malicious intent. How he came across is who he is.
He should not be selling baggies. I spoke to him yesterday and he has suggested getting UKG to get involved and perhaps getting everything he sells graded first.

Grant, I love your sense of humour and wish you'd done the interview with him! You do make it sound like Jeff is Forrest Gump - "life is like a box of baggies, you never know what yur gonna git".

 

[finestcomics]

One other thing I'd like clarified as I can't see the ends of these examples - are the seals on these incorrect as well? Can someone illustrate what about them is suspect beyond the hand painted retouching of the Kenner logo? When I first saw this, I wondered if they were owned by an OCD collector who wanted something that looked good from 3 feet away for display. Happens all the time with touched-up displays, MOCS', MIB items. Not saying I approve of selling touched-up items without disclosure, but I've heard it a million times before that when something is pointed out as being touched-up, the person says they had no idea.

If the intent can't be proven, and the seals on these are fine, these are so obvious at close inspection that I honestly can't see the point of treating these any differently than a "touched-up" baggie.

Just asking for elaboration more than anything here as that is how I see these.