Gray Hoth Trooper facts and not fiction

[walkie]

http://theswca.com/images-produ/HOTH.html

So I'm guessing his source was you Jason?

Things that seem odd to me.

1 - If it's a first shot, why paint the black parts of the torso?

2 - You say the grey limbs are white inside, even with my limited knowledge of injection molding I'm struggling on how it could be molding in two separate colours.

What's needed are more examples, all of which have the same COO markings to prove they came from the same mold tooling and the same factory.

 

[walkie]

Here's an interesting read....

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t947597/

 

[x-pack]

Excellent post Jason

From just looking at these it's plain to see that they were either factory test runs or someone (maybe at the factory) has spray painted them with enamel or acrylic. This could possibly explain the change in colour which maybe caused by some sort of reaction to the plastic.
I hear there's a technique called 'boil and pop' where the figure is placed in boiling water and then then limbs are popped out. To get them back in the torso is forced open and then glued back together. Paint could have been applied using this method or just done at the factory before assembly.

Is there any sign of that? Movement of the limbs would have worn paint away. I'm guessing Lee will be able to test the surface and see if it is paint.

Never heard of these figures. Cracking items if they are some sort of test run 8)

 

[spoons]

I remember seeing these on Antiques Roads Show a few years back - the 'expert' thought they were real. Anyone know who the expert was?

 

[ace]

Thank you for the link to the Rebelscum forum and the thread about these figures.

Looking threw the posts i can see some good fair people did look at this figures history in a open way but i have to call out one person as being a total lier and someone i have a real issue with, its people like Todd DeMartino that are just full of themselves and just say trash and get away with it till days like this, come back time has arrived.


Todd DeMartino YOU ARE A LIER

your post Todd from back in 2006



06-13-2006, 09:21 AM #20
StarWarsMuseum
High Admiral

Join Date
Jul 2002

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper w/ gray limbs
Why o' why does this continually come up?
If you own one and need to make yourself feel better by telling yourself that if is real then do so but....
Jason Joiner looked me in the eye back in the early 90's at FX in Orlando and Toyrific in NY and said that he made them among other things (proto R2, props, etc.).
A grumpy morning,
Todd D



my response

point 1
if i was doing something underhand why would i admit to it to someone i do not even know when i was trying to sell them ?. i am not that stupid Todd

point 2
i have never been to the show "Toyrific in NY" there was a Toyrific in LA that i went to ?, Todd if you cannot get the fact of what town the show is in right what hope any of your facts are correct ?

point 3
one last thing Todd has your book come out yet ? its seems like you took preorders and payment from fans for a book you still have not delivered from over 5.5 years ago now ?

wow and you say i am the one to not trust :-D


Todd DeMartino YOU ARE A LIER and its lying people like you that created all this trash that hides the real truth, call yourself a expert and someone that is there to deliver the facts to the masses in books ? , you are noting more that a fraud and a lier ?



well that clears that up

now back to getting to the bottom of this mystery behind the figure.

 

[ace]

going back to the thread on the RS forum here are my thoughts


the Grey colour is only on the serfs

if you damage the serfs then it is Wight underneath

it is not paint its deff in the plastic but the colour distortion is only on the serfs

the figure in question on this thread had been split open ? why could it have been opened by someone also trying to find out more about it by opening it up , not it being opened in the process of changing the colour of the limbs ?

these images do look the same as the one i still have and the ones i sold off before.

imaged from RS from back in 2006

 

[ace]

there is a good point that i think people picked up on then lost site of the body of these figure and my figure is very crisp and very white more white then the regular Hoth trooper you see around ?

i think thats a very important aspect of this mystery , is there any lose figure collectors that have seen a body like this ?

any help is most welcome

thanks everyone

Jason

 

[ace]

i just read this old post

I have herd many bad things about this person Billy Boy ? but i do not know him or remember him from back in the day , as i have said i was never on my stand as a dealer as i was out and about buying and chatting to other collectors at the shows so i wold not have had much to do with him, he says he did buy from me and talked to me but i just do not remember him ?

but the points he dose bring up are interesting and he says he found these figures maybe before i did at a show , ?

anyway


09-15-2003, 04:44 AM #27
Billy_Boy
Moff

Join Date
Jul 2002

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs
WOW! = I love all the speculation surrounding this figure?!


This is what I know / have observed about the 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper...

The first time I saw an example was in 1986 at a Toy Fair in Sevenoaks, Kent! There was about 20 specimens (with accessories) amongst a large box of sealed Star Wars baggies and other loose figures (including some Care Bears*) on a stall! = I remember asking about them and the stallholder just 'shrugged' and said everything in the box came from the Palitoy factory! I clearly recall finding the figures 'odd', but I was collecting mainly Blade Runner and Alien items at the time, so I didn't buy any of them! = Even though I think they were probably only priced at about 50p each!?

I didn't see any again until October next year at the 1987 World Science Fiction Convention in Brighton, East Sussex! A UK stallholder had two or three 'loose/complete' examples for sale for about £10 each! = I remember feeling 'annoyed' at not buying them the previous year so I purchased two for about £18! (I believe Jason Joiner possibly bought the remaining example from the same seller too!) = I was now avidly collecting Star Wars items and I therefore paid a 'whopping' £80 for my Droids A-Wing fighter (from Jason) and bought a few Star Wars carded figures from various US and Canadian stallholders too!

The following year (1988) I purchased another 'loose/complete' example from a Toy Fair in Crawley, West Sussex! I think it was only about £6 or £8 too!? Later that year I attended a tiny Sci-Fi fair at a hall near the Sudbury Hill 'Tube Station' in London. = Jim Stevenson, David Oliver, The 'Sheffield Space Centre' and Jason Joiner were all present! = Jason had some great items on his stall, including some large etched mirrors 'he obtained' from the 1987 Starlog/Creation Conventions 'First 10 Years' celebration! + He also had a 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper for sale at about £50!!! = I believe he referred to it as a 'prototype' too!?

I can vaguely remember 'chatting' about the figure and 'questioning' his asking price?! = I do however distinctly remember buying a load of carded figures from Jim and a nice carded RotLA Indy figure from David!

From then on... I can only recall ever seeing Jason with those 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers on his stall?! = The price soon went up to about £75-£100 by the early 1990's too!

In 1993 I sold nearly all of my carded, most of my loose and half of my boxed Star Wars collection to help 'fund' my education! = I also personally sold the three 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers at Toy Fairs (probably at Lancing, Worthing or Brighton?), for about £60-£75 each!
= I actually raised enough money that year to get me through my Degree AND Masters too!

The 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers I originally owned weren't that 'interesting' to me at that time?! BUT... I can remember clearly that the limbs were MOULDED grey and that the capes had round holes and the figures themselves were similar to the 'Tri Variant' (I HATE the term 'YPS'

), as they were made of a harder plastic and hence appeared to have 'finer' details! These Tri Snowtroopers (which first appeared on the Palitoy 65bk), were around a LOT in the late 1980's in the UK! I remember seeing the odd box-full of them at Toy Fairs! = The 'grey limbed' versions were certianly very similar in 'finish' and construction too!

In about 1996 I attended a Toy Fair in Farnham, Surrey. I was a student there and wasn't really 'collecting' at the time! I remember seeing a stall with some 'custom' Rocket Fetts (being sold as 'authentic'!

) and a 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper! = That particular figure (priced at £125!) was just a regular HK figure with PAINTED grey limbs! = 'DODGY'!!!

Many figures have acquired 'mythological status' here in the UK?! = I'd honestly love to hear Jason Joiner's opinion of these figures? + I'd love to have an indepth disscussion on 'gold hatted' BSGs with Chris Harper ...I'm sure he said he'd got some 'supporting paperwork' on those too!?

= I 'can't be arsed' to speculate on the actual 'reasons' for the exsistence of these original MOULDED limbs Snowtroopers? = I've always just 'assumed' they were a either a 'test', a 'faulty batch' or just some factory employee using up some 'spare' plastic during the demise of the Palitoy factory!?

*= I can honestly remember that some of those Care Bears figures had 'very odd' mis-matched limbs too!!!

Bill


but it is interesting what he says ? , i understand he was involved in something underhand ? but it still dose not mean every thing he is talking about is not true ? and when it dose not have a direct benefit to him in some way then maybe some of his memories should be looked into ?


just a thought

jason

 

[ace]

one other thing i read about was the

"Gold hat Bespin Guard"




WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP ITS JUST MADE UP AND FAKE

never herd of one

never seen one

no one ever talked about them from 1983 till i stopped running the collectors shops in 2005

never seen a flyer promoting the offer

no one ever told me of them having one as a kid

i bought around 50,000 lose figures in my time and never saw a lose one and i collected every different version of every figure i saw and never seen anything like this.

this just must have been a cheep fake with a fake story behind it the end

jason

 

[SublevelStudios]

One thing is for sure, Billy Boy likes to use exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

 

[walkie]

there is a good point that i think people picked up on then lost site of the body of these figure and my figure is very crisp and very white more white then the regular Hoth trooper you see around ?

i think thats a very important aspect of this mystery , is there any lose figure collectors that have seen a body like this ?

The comparison photos are slightly mis-leading as the white limbed figure is a HONG KONG coo, and not a SCARRED coo like you grey limbed one. You can see this detail here....

Therefore although the mold tools are most likely the same set that was used for each figure, the tooling more then likely moved to another factory/country and was modified. So the plastics used to produce the HONG KONG and SCARRED coo version are more then likely different in theory.

As for the whiteness of the torso, we also have hard torso storm troopers to consider.

Sorry for playing the part of the devil's advocate but I'm just partaking in the discussion.

 

[Grant_C]

I want one!

My purple smock ugnaught can have a friend

 

[naughtyjedi]

I have a long distant history in injection moulding/molding. I used to work on shampoo bottles for a large (P&G) company in the 90s. I had to have a 'knowledge' of the processes before travelling off to annoy foreign people in various plants around europe/usa to get a colour match on caps (PP) to bottles (HDPE). In the 90s it wasn't cost effective to use co-injection molding for the two colours unless you were adding a soft touch cover (i.e a toothbrush handle) or a surrounding layer with antistatic properties or something similar. My knowledge of that process in the 80s is zero. I would speculate it went on.

With that figure, IF IT IS NOT PAINTED, you might have a huge amount of plastic masterbatch (plastic chips to be melted) and wanted to first inject the colour for the outside, then with another injection unit to fill it in. This would cut down on the amount of variant colours. This grey might have been used as a test to see how this process delivered consistent results. i.e. how much of the colour showed consistency on the outside. I don't know if this was done at all for other figures, but these companies would be trying to cost save and removing the amount of paint applications could save a lot of money. I would hazard a guess that it went through the entire process, through to assembly to test a processing method for QC.

 

[ace]

there is a good point that i think people picked up on then lost site of the body of these figure and my figure is very crisp and very white more white then the regular Hoth trooper you see around ?

i think thats a very important aspect of this mystery , is there any lose figure collectors that have seen a body like this ?

The comparison photos are slightly mis-leading as the white limbed figure is a HONG KONG coo, and not a SCARRED coo like you grey limbed one. You can see this detail here....


Therefore although the mold tools are most likely the same set that was used for each figure, the tooling more then likely moved to another factory/country and was modified. So the plastics used to produce the HONG KONG and SCARRED coo version are more then likely different in theory.

As for the whiteness of the torso, we also have hard torso storm troopers to consider.

Sorry for playing the part of the devil's advocate but I'm just partaking in the discussion.

dont be sorry its how we learn what it is we are dealing with here the more thoughts and ideas the better thanks for the input

can we get a like for like photo of the trooper with SCARRED coo and compeer it to the hong kong version ? that would help i think to see if it is the same body

j

 

[ace]

I want one!

My purple smock ugnaught can have a friend

i think your purple smock Ugnaught has been in the sun a little to long and not in a toy prototype work shop

i have see a few of these from car boots back in the day some were not even faded and gave it a way as sun damage

hope that is of help

jason

 

[ace]

I have a long distant history in injection moulding/molding. I used to work on shampoo bottles for a large (P&G) company in the 90s. I had to have a 'knowledge' of the processes before travelling off to annoy foreign people in various plants around europe/usa to get a colour match on caps (PP) to bottles (HDPE). In the 90s it wasn't cost effective to use co-injection molding for the two colours unless you were adding a soft touch cover (i.e a toothbrush handle) or a surrounding layer with antistatic properties or something similar. My knowledge of that process in the 80s is zero. I would speculate it went on.

With that figure, IF IT IS NOT PAINTED, you might have a huge amount of plastic masterbatch (plastic chips to be melted) and wanted to first inject the colour for the outside, then with another injection unit to fill it in. This would cut down on the amount of variant colours. This grey might have been used as a test to see how this process delivered consistent results. i.e. how much of the colour showed consistency on the outside. I don't know if this was done at all for other figures, but these companies would be trying to cost save and removing the amount of paint applications could save a lot of money. I would hazard a guess that it went through the entire process, through to assembly to test a processing method for QC.

that is very interesting ? "naughtyjedi"

jason

i never really thought of it as a test to replace painting a figure ? that could be something we really need to talk to someone that was in charge at the plant i will talk to Dave Tree to see if he can find out how to ask

good points there thanks

 

[olisuds]

Quoting from the SWCA description:

"Hoth Stormtrooper Test Shot: This figure came to me through a well-known British dealer. He had several of them and told a very convincing story of how they came about. Apparently before the figure was finally mass-produced a number of them were made as test-shots with the limbs cast in dark grey plastic. Everything else is unchanged. They came to him through a contact at Kenner, at the same time he offered unpainted test-shots of the Micro C3PO made for the upcoming Bacta Chamber, unfortunately I didn't get one"

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but can I just point out that the scarred out COO means that this figure was not cast from a new steel mold prior to going into production. And further more i'm not sure what purpose it would serve to create such a piece when the figure was already in production. So I can't see this as anything other than factory error or possibly some sort of plastic degradation if they are still getting darker. There's a lot of similarity with AT-AT Driver limbs so I'm wondering if there was some sort of mix up?

 

[naughtyjedi]

Quoting from the SWCA description:

"Hoth Stormtrooper Test Shot: This figure came to me through a well-known British dealer. He had several of them and told a very convincing story of how they came about. Apparently before the figure was finally mass-produced a number of them were made as test-shots with the limbs cast in dark grey plastic. Everything else is unchanged. They came to him through a contact at Kenner, at the same time he offered unpainted test-shots of the Micro C3PO made for the upcoming Bacta Chamber, unfortunately I didn't get one"

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but can I just point out that the scarred out COO means that this figure was not cast from a new steel mold prior to going into production. And further more i'm not sure what purpose it would serve to create such a piece when the figure was already in production. So I can't see this as anything other than factory error or possibly some sort of plastic degradation if they are still getting darker. There's a lot of similarity with AT-AT Driver limbs so I'm wondering if there was some sort of mix up?

White masterbatch probably wouldnt degrade to grey, more likely they were running out the hopper from a previous run and didnt want to clean it out. Likely a factory employee 'threw it away'. I used to live my badly labelled shampoo bottles, didnt buy any shampoo for 10 years, neither did friends or family....

 

[David Tree]

Here's an interesting read....

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t947597/

bloody hell zombie thread

 

[sparkysx]

I'd like to get hold of one of these for the sheer history behind it!