Solving problems in the hobby - how?

[Robstyley]

Part of the issue was not enough evidence. A lot of people would have had to give up their Tonis to make it stick

How can there not be enough evidence?? Surely they only need half a dozen people with Tonis they bought from him who have some kind of receipt/proof linking the item to him, whether it be paper or electronic. I know eBay purchases can't be searched that far back but I think PayPal records go right back. Then get as many other people as they can find with Tonis to write a statement. And what about the infamous list of unused cardbacks he bought? That could be compared with the Tonis in existence along with proof that the bubbles and other aspects of them are wrong (not Palitoy factory sealed) which cannot be disputed.

 

[Frunkstar]

Part of the issue was not enough evidence. A lot of people would have had to give up their Tonis to make it stick

How can there not be enough evidence?? Surely they only need half a dozen people with Tonis they bought from him who have some kind of receipt/proof linking the item to him, whether it be paper or electronic. I know eBay purchases can't be searched that far back but I think PayPal records go right back. Then get as many other people as they can find with Tonis to write a statement. And what about the infamous list of unused cardbacks he bought? That could be compared with the Tonis in existence along with proof that the bubbles and other aspects of them are wrong (not Palitoy factory sealed) which cannot be disputed.

Agree with you totally, the big issue here is taking that first step to do the right thing, generally speaking from what I have witnessed personally from the baggiegate saga is that between 90 & 95% (yes it is that astronomically high) are simply not willing to come forward & would rather either try to get a refund & stay quiet behind closed doors or ignore the issue & carry on as normal, under those circumstances & percentages it is obvious to at least myself why nothing ever gets sorted.

I know in just 2 folks with the baggigate thing we were talking about a bill of totaling between 30 & 40k both those parties have never come forward publicly.

I also know with the new woolies 8 packs thing 2 folks have the majority of the packs in question, this must total a bear minimum of 40 packs, yet again neither party has seen fit to come forward.

I see from the poll we are in 98% agreement one should do the right thing & come forward to do whats needed, sadly thats on paper as it were, in reality this seems to be the polar opposite, if as many folks were not willing to stand up & be counted on the Toy Toni issues then it's hardly surprising nothing ever came of it.

What is needed is action, not words.

I know I am trying to do my bit.

 

[spoons]

Part of the issue was not enough evidence. A lot of people would have had to give up their Tonis to make it stick

How can there not be enough evidence?? Surely they only need half a dozen people with Tonis they bought from him who have some kind of receipt/proof linking the item to him, whether it be paper or electronic. I know eBay purchases can't be searched that far back but I think PayPal records go right back. Then get as many other people as they can find with Tonis to write a statement. And what about the infamous list of unused cardbacks he bought? That could be compared with the Tonis in existence along with proof that the bubbles and other aspects of them are wrong (not Palitoy factory sealed) which cannot be disputed.

The issue is how do you prove that they are not Palitoy seals without opening them all up and getting Toni's fingerprints on the figures. There is no historic documentation of Palitoy 'seals' only collector observations, which could be evidence enough but the police thought otherwise. Also Toni never sold anything as original Palitoy factory seal. He sold things as mint on card - which they are.

If enough people could prove that thier Tonis came direct from him and were happy for them to be opened I suspect there would be a case, but with the value that Tonis command very few would do that.

 

[Frunkstar]

Part of the issue was not enough evidence. A lot of people would have had to give up their Tonis to make it stick

How can there not be enough evidence?? Surely they only need half a dozen people with Tonis they bought from him who have some kind of receipt/proof linking the item to him, whether it be paper or electronic. I know eBay purchases can't be searched that far back but I think PayPal records go right back. Then get as many other people as they can find with Tonis to write a statement. And what about the infamous list of unused cardbacks he bought? That could be compared with the Tonis in existence along with proof that the bubbles and other aspects of them are wrong (not Palitoy factory sealed) which cannot be disputed.

The issue is how do you prove that they are not Palitoy seals without opening them all up and getting Toni's fingerprints on the figures. There is no historic documentation of Palitoy 'seals' only collector observations, which could be evidence enough but the police thought otherwise. Also Toni never sold anything as original Palitoy factory seal. He sold things as mint on card - which they are.

If enough people could prove that thier Tonis came direct from him and were happy for them to be opened I suspect there would be a case, but with the value that Tonis command very few would do that.

I only have one Toni, but I'd be more than willing to have it opened if it was needed for a case to be brought against him.

 

[Robstyley]

Part of the issue was not enough evidence. A lot of people would have had to give up their Tonis to make it stick

How can there not be enough evidence?? Surely they only need half a dozen people with Tonis they bought from him who have some kind of receipt/proof linking the item to him, whether it be paper or electronic. I know eBay purchases can't be searched that far back but I think PayPal records go right back. Then get as many other people as they can find with Tonis to write a statement. And what about the infamous list of unused cardbacks he bought? That could be compared with the Tonis in existence along with proof that the bubbles and other aspects of them are wrong (not Palitoy factory sealed) which cannot be disputed.

The issue is how do you prove that they are not Palitoy seals without opening them all up and getting Toni's fingerprints on the figures. There is no historic documentation of Palitoy 'seals' only collector observations, which could be evidence enough but the police thought otherwise. Also Toni never sold anything as original Palitoy factory seal. He sold things as mint on card - which they are.

If enough people could prove that thier Tonis came direct from him and were happy for them to be opened I suspect there would be a case, but with the value that Tonis command very few would do that.

I know what you're saying Andy, it would be very hard to make it stick, lots of different information and proof would have to be gathered and cross referenced... but, it can be proven they are not palitoy factory seals because he used incorrect bubbles on some cardback figure combinations, ones that can be proven to have never been made at Palitoy ever. And surely it wouldn't be hard to get an expert in hot sealing/action figure manufacture to examine or test the glue and seal and write a report on their findings?

I don't know what the answer is but I feel very sorry for those who have been duped and conned out of a lot of money. If I were one of those people I would be doing something about it.

 

[spoons]

At least a few of us tried but the police dropped it for the reasons above.

A friend of mine is a policeman and he says current resourcing means that the way crimes are prioritised fraud in toy collecting is never going to be top of the list. Most burgalries dont even get solved so what chance do we have.

 

[mr_palitoy]

At least a few of us tried but the police dropped it for the reasons above.

A friend of mine is a policeman and he says current resourcing means that the way crimes are prioritised fraud in toy collecting is never going to be top of the list. Most burgalries dont even get solved so what chance do we have.

Its funny though, if someone was forging paintings worth 10 or 20 grand, the police go after them and they go to jail for 10 years. Forging a carded toy is seen as a soft touch because its not on the police radar as they arent seen to be worth the bother, despite having similar value these days. The police need to keep up to date with their crimes radar. Would be great to see this change.

Jason

 

[Lindo]

Personally I don't think it will get anywhere unless the community stands together, for instance, why is Farthest From not boycotted if the likes of Jeff is still allowed to trade there?? if the organisers give a **** then they will act, people will complain about this guy at events but everyone still goes to these events, I understand its as much about a catch up with fellow collectors as it is buying stuff but catch up some where else, that's the part I struggle to get

 

[Frunkstar]

Personally I don't think it will get anywhere unless the community stands together, for instance, why is Farthest From not boycotted if the likes of Jeff is still allowed to trade there?? if the organisers give a **** then they will act, people will complain about this guy at events but everyone still goes to these events, I understand its as much about a catch up with fellow collectors as it is buying stuff but catch up some where else, that's the part I struggle to get

I don't

 

[mr_palitoy]

Personally I don't think it will get anywhere unless the community stands together, for instance, why is Farthest From not boycotted if the likes of Jeff is still allowed to trade there?? if the organisers give a **** then they will act, people will complain about this guy at events but everyone still goes to these events, I understand its as much about a catch up with fellow collectors as it is buying stuff but catch up some where else, that's the part I struggle to get

Because FF is a great collectors fair and social event and having a boycott which could ruin it isn't worth it. Have you been? Was expecting calls to boycott from those with no horse in the race.

Jason

 

[robpmarsh]

Boycott FF?

Why? Dave puts on a great show. And the meet-up the night before is always a laugh.

Plenty of great sellers on the Sunday and if you don't like a seller...don't visit that table.

I for one will still be attending. Out of interest has anyone who is asking for a boycott attended one recently...if ever?

 

[Stuart Skinner]

Personally I don't think it will get anywhere unless the community stands together, for instance, why is Farthest From not boycotted if the likes of Jeff is still allowed to trade there?? if the organisers give a **** then they will act, people will complain about this guy at events but everyone still goes to these events, I understand its as much about a catch up with fellow collectors as it is buying stuff but catch up some where else, that's the part I struggle to get

Boycott FF? Have you attended the event?

Dave Tree puts his heart and soul into putting that event on for people like us to meet up, enjoy a beer and buy and discuss vintage Star Wars toys. The show is a highlight of mine and many others, suggesting a boycott is absolutely absurd. Dave has his reasons for allowing Jeff to trade there but I'm sure you've actually asked him about those before making sweeping comments of boycotts.

 

[Mini99]

Boycott FF...why...
As with all things in life you have a choice, if you don't like what you are watching on TV change channel. If you don't like a trader, spend your money with someone else.
You wouldn't chuck your TV out of the window would you?

 

[Dannywhiteley]

Interesting thing with TT's is I bet even disclosed there are probably not many worth less now than the price paid bitd even in the belief they were real. I bought several in the 90's, and the prices even disclosed seem to be readjusting to an extent that even if you purchased them in good faith from Toni, they are probably worth more now (not allowing for inflation but actual monetary cost).

Of course you are losing the profityou would have made if they were real, but is anyone thousands down from dealing with Toni (that is unless you dumped them all as soon as the story broke)?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Interesting thing with TT's is I bet even disclosed there are probably not many worth less now than the price paid bitd even in the belief they were real. I bought several in the 90's, and the prices even disclosed seem to be readjusting to an extent that even if you purchased them in good faith from Toni, they are probably worth more now (not allowing for inflation but actual monetary cost).

Of course you are losing the profityou would have made if they were real, but is anyone thousands down from dealing with Toni (that is unless you dumped them all as soon as the story broke)?

Think I lost £1500 when I sold mine about 3 months after it broke with full disclosure.

Jason

 

[edd_jedi]

It's a tough one, Farthest From is (or has been) one of the highlights of the year for me. I certainly appreciate Dave's efforts putting it on and would not want to encourage people not to attend.

However I do know of people who have avoided the events since the allegations against Jeff surfaced and his continued presence, and having been to every event since I also feel it has caused a degree of awkwardness which I think even the events biggest supporters would struggle to deny. Perhaps it has even affected attendance, which seems to be declining.

As I said in a recent Facebook post, forget the name of the accused for a second, NO scammers should be welcome at events like this in my opinion. I would be shocked to see Toy Toni, Billy Boy etc allowed to sell at a community focused event. And with all the recent evidence posted by various people regarding baggies, multi packs and now mailaways, I have yet to see any decent explanation from Jeff that discredits these suspicions.

 

[Lindo]

For those that have asked no i have not been to FF and I'm not calling for a boycott of the event because it doesn't affect me, I will never be going, i simply asked why is it not if the feelings around those attending are so strong?

 

[SublevelStudios]

As I said in a recent Facebook post, forget the name of the accused for a second, NO scammers should be welcome at events like this in my opinion. I would be shocked to see Toy Toni, Billy Boy etc allowed to sell at a community focused event. And with all the recent evidence posted by various people regarding baggies, multi packs and now mailaways, I have yet to see any decent explanation from Jeff that discredits these suspicions.

This I have to agree with. Events such as FF and Echo Live which are aimed specifically at vintage collectors should be free of any kind of issues like this - no repro and no scammers. We take the hard line on this here and on Facebook and the events should also take this stance.

 

[Frunkstar]

I had always tried to make it to a FF, but since the baggiegate scandal broke & Jeff's continued presence at the event as a trader, I sadly now have no compulsion to attend one of them which is a crying shame, as other that that 1 point I would of liked to go to the event.

 

[theforceuk]

I have to admit when I found out this guy still attends FF I was suprised. I'm not saying anyone should have been nasty to him or anything. But if it was me who decided who has a stand there I would have politely said I don't think you should have the privilege of having a stand any more and that would be the end of it.

You can't be suprised or shout someone down for suggesting a boycott. Many memebers on here don't like AFA because of U grading which is understandable, would be suprising if anyone who had that view purchased stuff from him still.

It's a shame with all these scandals the colprit's get off scot free and leave a **** storm behind them.