Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[SOJ]

Okay, listened to show. Maybe my opinion may well change once Frank gives his interview but hear goes......

Setting aside anything else about the faking, how this was outed was just plan wrong.

The original post should not have been left until after Jeff had been confronted with evidence and allowed to give his side. Those responsible have not only shredded Jeff's rep, but in my view damaged their own. Frank in particular. I don't know about the rest of you but I tend to only share my telephone number with other members who I count as friends. From what I gather Jeff and Frank shared contact details and Jeffs comments suggest some level of friendship. The fact Jeff was not challenged by his "friend" earlier does not leave Frank in a great light, especially if everything Jeff is saying is true. I know what its like to feel betrayed in such as way and there is no worse feeling. Frank is the baggy expert no doubt, however if anyone could have set Jeff right and maybe prevented this blowing up, it was Frank.

The synchronised and systematic posting of links in FB back to SWFUK I think is deplorable. It's left Jeff clearly distressed, upset and feeling betrayed. I can only imagine what it must be like to have essentially thousands of people reading negative things about you without your knowledge. I hope the keyboard jockeys who automatically presume this guys guilt without hearing his side now understand the impact such comments have and I hope lessons will be learned. Honestly, the damage caused by the handling of this is almost, if not as bad as anything Jeff may or may not have done and threatens to overshadow the real issue at hand.

Regarding the faking itself, my opinion at the moment from the evidence present by both sides is that Jeff was NOT manufacturing baggies. I've only met Jeff once at the last FF. I purchased 2 MOC's from him and chatted for 10-15 minutes. He seemed a good guy and after listening to the Pod I still believe that to be the case. I believe he didn't know enough about that we was selling. He acknowledged he had made mistakes and offered refunded any proven fakes he has sold. In an ideal world Frank would have offered to assess Jeff baggies prior to outing. I think now Frank assessing Jeff collection will add little value, if Frank doesn't find any Jeff will be accused concealing the fakes. He's in a lose lose situation.

Personally if me and I was innocent, I think I'd stick my 2 fingers up at the community and walk into the sunset. A sorry, sorry story.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

I have spent time thinking about this... I know Jeff through Marc Hockley and the FF events. I have already found Jeff to be a lovely bloke without a bad bone in his body. If Jeff Glanville is a scammer and a faker then I have no judgment of character at all. I have listened to the podcast and my feeling is that Jeff has been collecting without good enough knowledge base. Does that make Jeff a bit naive - probably... Does it make him a scammer in my opinion - NO! Jeff's mistakes has had some repercussions on the hobby but this isnt like McWilliams/Toy Toni/Billy Boy. Jeff goes to shows where at any point he could be called out. If he was faking these do you think he would do this, given that McWilliams/Toy Toni/Billy Boy disappeared off the face of the earth? With respect to Jeff he is a placid, non-confrontational guy who I think wouldnt want such confrontation if he was knowingly selling fakes.

Please - can we cool our jets, and let Jeff make amends here. Really the best way for this to go is for Frank and a VR representative to go to Jeff's place and audit his stock.

Jeff is a friend to many here, including myself - lets not turn this into a witch hunt.

Peace out

Lee

This precisely how I feel about the whole affair too. Great post.

 

[spoons]

Personally if me and I was innocent, I think I'd stick my 2 fingers up at the community and walk into the sunset. A sorry, sorry story.

I think I'd do the same

Jeff has me convinced he's not faking these - running a business and raising kids is time consuming enough

I genuinely feel for him but the interview didn't convince me he was unwittingly selling these - it struck me more of a business risk that some would be returned.

I've really no idea what's going on and I'd be interested in knowing why the other guys are so convinced he is deliberately selling fakes.

The interview worked well for Jeff, and I do wonder how many other people that we as the community have jumped on, would have been cut more slack if we had heard them speak, rather than just read their words.

Despite it working in Jeff's favour the interview made me cringe and I would have preferred to read Jeff's explanation, although I doubt I would have believed him as much.

A horrible mess and to me the whole thing feels a little bit 'Lord of the flies' with us judging someone based on the mob.

I look forward to hearing why Frank and the rest are so convinced Jeff was deliberately feeding the fakes out - and dread it in equal
measure

 

[tobedesu]

As far as we can tell Jeff has been doing this for a long time (minimum 4 years), IMO making fake baggies / resealing genuine baggie with swapped out figures & has over that time been improving & trying to perfect those fakes, if he is not making them himself then he is heavily involved in selling them as nearly all examples that we have confirmed trace back to him either directly or indirectly.



Baggie types that we know have been faked by him -

If interviewed, would it be possible to get some clarification from Frunkstar about the certainty of the accusation "...we know have been faked by him"?

Unless I've missed something, the above paragraph states an uncertainty regarding Jeff actually physically tampering with the baggies, whilst later on there is a statement of certainty that the baggies have indeed been tampered with by Jeff.

Just like that cleared up because if it is the latter then surely its case closed.

 

[SublevelStudios]

Having listened to the interview what comes across quite strongly is this is a chap who doesn't seem the type to want to knowingly fake a product enmasse or individually and defraud fellow collectors.

What has bothered me from the outset is the way this story has come to light. It's clear from Jeff that he had no idea this was about to be made public on the forum. This guys rep is in tatters.

I have only briefly met with Jeff through Marc at the last FF so I don't know him well, but I think I can tell if someone is genuine. I get the impression he was pretty distraught about the whole thing.

The guys who bought this all to light are very well respected here and in the wider community, I'm looking forward to hearing the response so we can get the full picture.

I really hope all parties concerned can get together and resolve the issue in a way that sees confidence bought back to this area of collecting. Let's hope there can be a positive outcome from all of this.

Cheers
Mark

 

[SOJ]

I really hope all parties concerned can get together and resolve the issue in a way that sees confidence bought back to this area of collecting. Let's hope there can be a positive outcome from all of this.

Agreed, just a shame it didn't happen before it all went public.

 

[wrighty]

Any feedback from Frank since the podcast was live? Will be great to hear his side of the story and maybe even what was the investigative group's view and also what happened with a member of the original group that somehow withdrew from all this? I have a feeling its not all one voice in this! :?:

 

[lee gray]

The guys who bought this all to light are very well respected here and in the wider community, I'm looking forward to hearing the response so we can get the full picture.


Cheers
Mark

Thats the thing although Frank posted the thread alot of other guys were in agreement to post it. I dont think anyone would like a thread posted about them the way this was done

 

[finestcomics]

let not turn this into a witch hunt.

Peace out

Lee

Too late !!

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

 

[edd_jedi]

I assure you all that if you had seen the amount of evidence gathered, you would not feel that this was an unfair outing or a witch hunt. As you should have seen there are threads on this very forum which are years old warning people of Jeff's fake baggies, this is not new to Jeff or anybody else here if they had bothered to look.

HOWEVER many of you raise a very valid point - there were 15 members of the investigation. So far I can only count four including myself and Frank who have come forward and posted in this thread, and one has even asked for his name to be removed from the list. Not all of us may have agreed (or had any warning) that this was going to be outed this way, but everyone in the group was certainly convinced of most if not all of the accusations.

I have asked them all to come forward and comment on here. One of them has a good excuse as he is on holiday, the rest however need to step out of the shadows and take some responsibility.

Again I will point out that my involvement was purely as an evidence provider - I am neither a baggie expert or somebody who knows Jeff well, I've met him once and bought a few baggies from him over the last six months.

 

[edd_jedi]

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

With all due respect this is far from resolved. Jeff's denial and good character in the phone interview are not concrete evidence that none of this has any weight to it.

 

[jedisearcher]

Being objective, the piece of evidence that would help Jeff would be some proof he spent a ton of money with jawa93 or whatever his username was, as it establishes a trail back to a possible faker. Without it you take your pick with whether you believe he did/didn't fake them himself. If my name was being dragged through the mud I'd be in the phone 24/7 to PayPal or my Bank immediately to firmly establish that fact. Those records will be there, no doubt about it.

But even then, isn't it a bit of a stretch to think someone (jawa93 potentially as that's the name out there), produced hundreds of these things, sold them all in one batch and never went and produced more? If you were so minded to have faked a load of them, sold them for serious money (to Jeff) then why on earth would you not do it again, and again?? People like that don't stop til they're caught. It doesn't stack up.

 

[finestcomics]

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

With all due respect this is far from resolved. Jeff's denial and good character in the phone interview are not concrete evidence that none of this has any weight to it.

With all due respect, the burden is on the investigators I'm afraid. I can be persuaded, but the evidence to back these accusations better be rock solid.

 

[SublevelStudios]

As you should have seen there are threads on this very forum which are years old warning people of Jeff's fake baggies, this is not new to Jeff or anybody else here if they had bothered to look.

Fair point Edd. My take on that would be that baggies are terribly easy to fake and given the amount that Jeff has sold over the years, and his varied resources for obtaining stock it's quite likely that these slipped through the net unbeknowst to him, a genuine mistake?

I do not however, know about the evidence that was presented to you so will look forward to seeing a fuller picture once we have that side of the story.

 

[Lee Bullock]

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

With all due respect this is far from resolved. Jeff's denial and good character in the phone interview are not concrete evidence that none of this has any weight to it.

With respect Edd - the weight of evidence lies with Jeff's accusers that Jeff was faking these baggies. And whilst there is evidence that fake baggies have come through Jeff there is no evidence whatsoever that he is the source of the fakes as has been stated previously.

 

[edd_jedi]

there is no evidence whatsoever that he is the source of the fakes as has been stated previously.

Apart from the fact that the overwhelming majority have been traced directly back to him.

 

[SOJ]

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

With all due respect this is far from resolved. Jeff's denial and good character in the phone interview are not concrete evidence that none of this has any weight to it.

But Edd, do you not agree the way this has been outed could have been handled better? Surely it would have made more sense to have conversations with Jeff first and made absolutely certain of his guilt. Because reading many of the comments post the interview being released many people including myself aren't so sure.

Are you 100% certain he was doing all of the things the original post accused him of?

 

[edd_jedi]

I'm not 100% certain of anything, as said three times I was invited to provide my baggies as evidence for scrutiny, that's the extent of my involvement. I couldn't tell you if a baggie is fake or not.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Agreed. This pattern of witch hunts going on has been allowed to get completely out of hand because of politics, rivalries, and deluded ego's that think they are beyond reproach. The last one saw the mud-slingers cinch their saddles without as much as an apology to the wronged party, and I hope for the sake of those involved here they have proof to back the accusations, because this is one situation which the community shouldn't allow to slip by without people answering to this.

With all due respect this is far from resolved. Jeff's denial and good character in the phone interview are not concrete evidence that none of this has any weight to it.

I have no horse in this race, don't know Jeff, know **** all about baggies (But know a few of these are obvious fakes) but there is this... always keep in mind there are people with jobs out there who are not seriously qualified or competent, they just have stellar interview skills.....................

As far as how this was handled..I agree ..it could have been done much better. Telling him beforehand would have made him no more prepared. Lets remember that was a group effort as well.

 

[Lee Bullock]

there is no evidence whatsoever that he is the source of the fakes as has been stated previously.

Apart from the fact that the overwhelming majority have been traced directly back to him.

Circumstantial evidence at best - real evidence needs to be shown or the accusation retracted because if the accusers are wrong then this is libel on your forum Edd. The accusations in my opinion are far to strident from the outset...