The damage lighter fluid does on vintage MOC's and packaging

[PGowdy]

I think when we start nit picking packaging for being cleaned or the fact someone took a wet wipe to it...we truely have become anal and have been sucked up our own assholes. My opinion of course.
.

Yeah i think it starts getting a bit silly at that stage. I think we have a tendency to over worry about silly things like this. I think if you cleaned something in the 90s and 20 years on it's not showing any negative signs then there reaaaaally isn't any real need to worry.
Keeping them on display in any form probably does them harm. Keeping them stood up instead of laying flat on their back definitely does them harm but those are a necessary evil so that we can actually collect and enjoy these things rather than lock them away in a dark box untouched forever in order to really preserve them. There has to be a little give and take. Just a little.
I'm one of the biggest advocates of protecting vintage toys. I'm massively against UGrading or the opening of vintage toys but i think this is going a bit far. Honestly, who cares? :roll:

 

[finestcomics]

Does anyone have a link to the afa cleaned power droid?

Meant to include that in the original post - thanks for reminding me:

 

[PGowdy]

Does anyone have a link to the afa cleaned power droid?

Meant to include that in the original post - thanks for reminding me:

This picture does not tell a lot as there is different lighting, different focus and one is behind per specs so it adds to rather spurious evidence proving not a thing. Even the bubble and figure look a different shade.

 

[finestcomics]

Here's a partial screen capture of one other person who shared a photo of a sticker that had been scrubbed:

 

[spoons]

Could be sun damage too

I freely admit to being a wet wipe man :mrgreen:

Great for sticker residues on bubbles

 

[finestcomics]

Does anyone have a link to the afa cleaned power droid?

Meant to include that in the original post - thanks for reminding me:

This picture does not tell a lot as there is different lighting, different focus and one is behind per specs so it adds to rather spurious evidence proving not a thing. Even the bubble and figure look a different shade.

It's the same card. The only difference is the after photo is missing 2/3rds of the price sticker.

 

[PGowdy]

It's the same card. The only difference is the after photo is missing 2/3rds of the price sticker.

Yes, i'm aware it's the same card. So all this is showing is that AFA remove price stickers. I see.
I thought it was trying to show a difference in quality. My mistake.

Nothing the AFA does surprises me tho. They rip perfectly good MOCs apart so an idiot can display a freshly removed figure.

 

[Richard_H]

I appreciate your response Iain, but with all due respect, I don't need to hear a joker like Todd going on about how pointless it is to raise awareness around vandals destroying MOC's and packaging to eke out higher grades, or to fool AFA/UKG to pass through otherwise rejected cards. It's deceptive and destructive. I'm just seeing the true colours, and at the core, it's hypocritical.

If people like him are so against repros and u-grading because it's destructive to the hobby, then they need to be consistent about other things that are going on with "reconditioning" and "tweaking" vintage which are equally destructive and deceptive.

Ok, I've read up to this point and the way I see it is thus. I do have experience with working with paper, card, gloss, tear proof, water proof, plastic sheen paper........

I agree soaking the card in chemicals will damage it. Any idiot would know that. Soaking a price sticker (which admit I don't like the stickers but can see the history of them so understand both ways) is going to cause damage. That's obvious. However, a careful dabbing of goo gone, lighter fluid etc on a cardback is not going to cause damage. The glue on the back of the sticker would have caused more damage. Cardbacks are not paper backs. If it was paper then yes, there'd be no way to remove it safely. So I think a message of 'hey guys be careful with.......' would have been appreciated. If someone who'd carefully removed a sticker from the 80s or 90s came on here and showed damage then I'd be surprised and then rethink my opinion.

The D Martin comment came out of nowhere unless there's been editing of messages. You will win no arguments with that. He ****ed up. He didn't apologise. He lied. He disappointed the RS community including the mods. Indefensible.

And then the repro u grade crap. Again, you'll win no arguments on here. I personally believe that U grading is dying out. If I'm the only person who bleats on about repro then I'll do it. But that's an argument I'm not going into.

Disclosing lighter fluid.... if there's damage because you've ****ed up then absolutely. If you've been careful then no way. When these were in store rooms and shops were they exposed to airbourne chemicals? Damn right. The cards were pressed with machines that would have need oils and hydraulic grease. nasty stuff. Have these caused damage? Has air pollution damaged them? Should I disclose I may have opened a window in my room? What about if I sprayed air freshener in the room? What about furniture polish nearby? All contributing to microfilms of chemicals lying on top of the card.

These are not and never will be in factory made condition as the moment they've been opened the deterioration process starts.

And yes Todd is a joker. But not for those reasons.

 

[PGowdy]

I appreciate your response Iain, but with all due respect, I don't need to hear a joker like Todd going on about how pointless it is to raise awareness around vandals destroying MOC's and packaging to eke out higher grades, or to fool AFA/UKG to pass through otherwise rejected cards. It's deceptive and destructive. I'm just seeing the true colours, and at the core, it's hypocritical.

If people like him are so against repros and u-grading because it's destructive to the hobby, then they need to be consistent about other things that are going on with "reconditioning" and "tweaking" vintage which are equally destructive and deceptive.

Ok, I've read up to this point and the way I see it is thus. I do have experience with working with paper, card, gloss, tear proof, water proof, plastic sheen paper........

I agree soaking the card in chemicals will damage it. Any idiot would know that. Soaking a price sticker (which admit I don't like the stickers but can see the history of them so understand both ways) is going to cause damage. That's obvious. However, a careful dabbing of goo gone, lighter fluid etc on a cardback is not going to cause damage. The glue on the back of the sticker would have caused more damage. Cardbacks are not paper backs. If it was paper then yes, there'd be no way to remove it safely. So I think a message of 'hey guys be careful with.......' would have been appreciated. If someone who'd carefully removed a sticker from the 80s or 90s came on here and showed damage then I'd be surprised and then rethink my opinion.

The D Martin comment came out of nowhere unless there's been editing of messages. You will win no arguments with that. He ****ed up. He didn't apologise. He lied. He disappointed the RS community including the mods. Indefensible.

And then the repro u grade crap. Again, you'll win no arguments on here. I personally believe that U grading is dying out. If I'm the only person who bleats on about repro then I'll do it. But that's an argument I'm not going into.

Disclosing lighter fluid.... if there's damage because you've ****ed up then absolutely. If you've been careful then no way. When these were in store rooms and shops were they exposed to airbourne chemicals? Damn right. The cards were pressed with machines that would have need oils and hydraulic grease. nasty stuff. Have these caused damage? Has air pollution damaged them? Should I disclose I may have opened a window in my room? What about if I sprayed air freshener in the room? What about furniture polish nearby? All contributing to microfilms of chemicals lying on top of the card.

These are not and never will be in factory made condition as the moment they've been opened the deterioration process starts.

And yes Todd is a joker. But not for those reasons.

Great post. Sums it up very nicely it think.
Being careful is an obvious must and if you're not sure what you're doing; don;'t do anything! I made that stupid mistake once. I tried to movie a price sticker and ****ed the card. But that's cos i'm an idiot, not because it can't be done carefully and effectively using the right methods carefully.

 

[finestcomics]

I agree soaking the card in chemicals will damage it. Any idiot would know that. Soaking a price sticker (which admit I don't like the stickers but can see the history of them so understand both ways) is going to cause damage. That's obvious. However, a careful dabbing of goo gone, lighter fluid etc on a cardback is not going to cause damage. The glue on the back of the sticker would have caused more damage. Cardbacks are not paper backs. If it was paper then yes, there'd be no way to remove it safely. So I think a message of 'hey guys be careful with.......' would have been appreciated. If someone who'd carefully removed a sticker from the 80s or 90s came on here and showed damage then I'd be surprised and then rethink my opinion.

The D Martin comment came out of nowhere unless there's been editing of messages. You will win no arguments with that. He ****ed up. He didn't apologise. He lied. He disappointed the RS community including the mods. Indefensible.

And then the repro u grade crap. Again, you'll win no arguments on here. I personally believe that U grading is dying out. If I'm the only person who bleats on about repro then I'll do it. But that's an argument I'm not going into.

Disclosing lighter fluid.... if there's damage because you've ****ed up then absolutely. If you've been careful then no way. When these were in store rooms and shops were they exposed to airbourne chemicals? Damn right. The cards were pressed with machines that would have need oils and hydraulic grease. nasty stuff. Have these caused damage? Has air pollution damaged them? Should I disclose I may have opened a window in my room? What about if I sprayed air freshener in the room? What about furniture polish nearby? All contributing to microfilms of chemicals lying on top of the card.

These are not and never will be in factory made condition as the moment they've been opened the deterioration process starts.

And yes Todd is a joker. But not for those reasons.

The cardbacks are cardboard paper stock, matted with a thin paper layer. That thin paper or "graphic" layer has inks on it which WILL crack when exposed to these chemicals. If you look under magnification, you will see that dull appearance after a sticker has been removed is partly to do with ink loss, and partly to do with the fluid penetrating the paper layer after the inks have dried during the period the petroleum distillate evaporates.

That petrol-fluid IS NEITHER a part of the composition of the cardback, or of the thin paper layer until it is introduced and used on an MOC. You're also assuming people will all use common sense when removing a price sticker, or that exposure is limited to one treatment with minimal residual risk. As I've explained, the idea of "over-exposing" the paper can also happen after the first sticker removal attempt messes up, a vintage sticker is applied to mask, and the new owner in the chain of ownership decides to do the same. In that instance though, depending on how badly the botched sticker removal was the first time, you could have peel away which means direct contact with the cardstock.

As for the environmental influences during the printing/production, I have no idea why that's being brought up. I'm referring specifically to the introduction of a "foreign" chemical NEVER involved in the factory production process, combined with a collector preference to store their MOC's using soft/hard cases, and those cases acting as a chamber to trap those VOC's for the life of that card. Where the rubber meets the road, those machines you're referring to in your comment aren't being brought into people's homes. Conversely, because of people's bend on removing stickers or ink touch-ups, those MOC's and vintage packaging now have a foreign chemical that's binding to the chemical composition of the paper.

As for the trickling comments on D Martin and u-grading - again, I spoke directly to the individual on those points because I felt he was acting similarly to the hard heads on Facebook that will not or cannot be convinced repros are doing harm. My only miscalculation was expecting better from him as community member.

 

[PGowdy]

[

As for the trickling comments on D Martin and u-grading - again, I spoke directly to the individual on those points because I felt he was acting similarly to the hard heads on Facebook that will not or cannot be convinced repros are doing harm. My only miscalculation was expecting better from him as community member.

Trying to reason with people on the Facebook groups is rather like trying to teach algebra to chickens.
I really don't know why anyone wastes their time and energy bothering.

 

[Michael Sith]

Case in point.....


This box is trashed, would to most people just be discarded, left in the loft, where damp, mice, mould spores, and other things would slowly worsen it to a stage where it is lost to the hobby.

This box is full of Sellotape and marker penned.

I intent to

Starch and iron
Use lighter fluid on the Sellotape
Square
Possibly apply a cardboard insert

I will do this for my own benefit, to display behind my ATAT

I will save the box, I will enjoy doing it, and will enjoy displaying it.




image by Michael j s1, on Flickr


image by Michael j s1, on Flickr

 

[tiefighterboy]

You are never going to get it thru this guys thick ****ing skull. If this was only about AFA practices then I could really care less as they continue to damage the hobby in many ways. Your stupid ramblings and multi-paragraph dribble taken from websites is becoming pointless. You are talking about items that have been stored and handled in multiple areas and by multiple people for decades. As Richard stated..these things have been around.

To be honest I am not really sure what your angle is as you seem to avoid direct questions...Ignore people telling you over and over again that they have cleaned their stuff with no seen damage for quite sometime and you just really seem to be trying to stir the turd with your angle on U grades and the whole Orme thing....almost as If that were your whole premise for the thread. Cleaning figures is nowhere near the other problems we have invintage and just because one makes a stand on reproduction and U grades...does not mean they have to jump on all the band wagons....and surely not the .."hey Goo-gone which is all natural destroy cardbacks in a 100 years one.

and as far as the RS Orme thing goes...you find it amusing how worked up I got...but yet in another statement say you talked the to guy because you hate repros...but then earlier say.....it is stupid to take a stand on U grades and Repros.....****in waffling and flip flopping.

Thinking that I am sole opposition to Orme, repros and AFA tactics on this forum is absurd.

This thread is stupid..pointless and non-thought provoking.


Now **** off.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

finestcomics, hello I wanted to start by saying thank you for posting this - I believe it is a sincere attempt to alert fellow collectors to what you perceive (rightly or wrongly) as a potential dangerous practice.

I am interested in the subject because as mentioned I have cleaned many boxes (im not going to be ponsy and say 'restored', cleaned is the correct word!) involving a gentle wipe over with a damp cloth and then in many cases using a bit of cotton wool dabbed with light fluid to moisten a sticker (and they're not just store stickers sometimes kids stick random things on boxes too!) and then peel it off. After doing so I do also wipe the area where the sticker once was with the damp cloth again (just warm water).

In every case doing this has improved the item, and I feel I have done the item itself and the hobby in general a good deed by wiping off the decades of grime and unlove - and given the item a bit of love back!

I am wondering about the statement that naptha is bad for paper. Is this a blanket statement like 'salt is bad for you', a statement in which the devil is in the details?

-Does this apply equally to all and every variety of paper? If so, to what greater or less extent?

-Do some lighter fluid brands create a worse chemical problem than others or are they all the same composition?

-Does the quantity of lighter fluid that is exposed to the paper make a difference? Is there a 'safe' quantity where a reaction would be unlikely?

-I have never seen any damage whatsoever - what it the time span upon which damage might 'manifest', years, decades, centuries? Why would it lie dormant in this way?

-With the incredible quantity of MOC and boxes in existence why don't we see damage to the top right corner of many thousands of cardbacks or boxes? There should be examples in abundance with cracked or clouded patches. Where is the smoking gun?

So while the statement 'lighter fluid is bad for paper' may have relevance as a broad blanket statement. Could the far more specific statement 'using a small dab of lighter fluid to remove a price sticker from a vintage Star Wars litho is harmless' also be true to all practical intent?

 

[Hooch]

-Does this apply equally to all and every variety of paper? If so, to what greater or less extent?

-Do some lighter fluid brands create a worse chemical problem than others or are they all the same composition?

-Does the quantity of lighter fluid that is exposed to the paper make a difference? Is there a 'safe' quantity where a reaction would be unlikely?

-I have never seen any damage whatsoever - what it the time span upon which damage might 'manifest', years, decades, centuries? Why would it lie dormant in this way?

-With the incredible quantity of MOC and boxes in existence why don't we see damage to the top right corner of many thousands of cardbacks or boxes? There should be examples in abundance with cracked or clouded patches. Where is the smoking gun?

So while the statement 'lighter fluid is bad for paper' may have relevance as a broad blanket statement. Could the far more specific statement 'using a small dab of lighter fluid to remove a price sticker from a vintage Star Wars litho is harmless' also be true to all practical intent?

A few decent questions Bonsai, I wouldn't mind hearing the answers for them

I for one have removed price stickers from some of my moc's. If it has only been 1 small sticker up top I leave it but if its a big yellow TRU or if they have had multiple stickers applied over the main pic I have removed them and have seen no effect as of yet
I have never used lighter fluid but have used another citrus based cleaner as we do not have Goo Gone in Australia. I have just dabbed it onto the sticker itself, peeled it away, quick wipe then let is air for a day and have never had any problem. I have taken pics of these cards before sticker removal and again many months on and I can not see any change so would be interested to know what time frame it takes for change to occur

 

[finestcomics]

I am wondering about the statement that naptha is bad for paper. Is this a blanket statement like 'salt is bad for you', a statement in which the devil is in the details?

The reason it's chosen, for it's intended purpose, is for blending. This is because it's an efficient solvent, both in breaking down the adhesive, and evaporating from the papers surface. At this point, I'm really not going to add anything new to what I've said, and written. I know your a good dude, but the last post from that ****wit makes this whole effort pointless. If you want your smoking gun, get a lighter and wave it over a treated area. You'll have your flashpoint to this debate about the residual risk, and confirmation for everything I've said about the way it becomes a part of the paper.

 

[tiefighterboy]

I have been told there may be some amount of confusion here and this may work better with less words:

- If your point is about AFA cleaning and disclosure of it.....I agree.

- If this is about LIGHTER FLUID ONLY hurting print and cardstock...once again...I agree.

- If this about little ole me or other collectors using goo-gone to remove price stickers...then I disagree

- If this is about us cleaning carded figures or flattening boxes using spray starch.........I disagree.

Pick one of these points, and let me know what it is...you seem to be all over the board.

This is as civil and straight to the point as I can be and I think for some on here...it will clear up the confusion.

 

[Joseph_Y]

This is tough as I'm friends with both Joe and Todd, and I see some merit in both sides of the rational points of their arguments.

1) If a paper conservationist warns of the long term effects of these products, how long until the effects are noticeable? 10? 20? 40? years, some kind of timeline on how long it takes for them to do the long term damage. Personally I noticed a Han Hoth that I used to own the card got darker once I'd removed a sticker w. Goo Gone and that was my last time using it. When I sold it I mentioned the stain and how it got there.

2) I agree that any chemical cleansing should be disclosed when selling an item. Soap n a damp towel, not really, a white eraser to clean surface dirt off of the white edges of a box, not really. Chemically cleansing it or recoloring it, absolutely. As a comic collector, the price/value gap between original and even slightly restored books is huge.

3) I don't see things such as ironing/pressing warped boxes or cards to flatten them as restoration as you're not chemically altering it.

4) It's not something I'm against if you're doing it in your collection, just keep track of items you've altered chemically and when/if they're ever sold, disclose it. Also a light cleansing and soaking an area on a box/card with these chemicals is slightly different as the level that it penetrates the card/box will greatly effect how drastic or how soon the damage will be noticeable

5) The fact that a self proclaimed "Authority" in the hobby is participating in openly chemically altering items w.o disclosure is the real problem here. Most other 3rd party grading companies,in other hobbies (Comics, coins, cards) look out for this kind of thing and either mark it as restored,refuse or lower the grade on an item if they can see signs of chemical alteration. As this hobby grows I can see restoration becoming a much bigger issue, nipping it in the bud early will help avoid people getting something that's not in the advertised condition.

my .02
Joe

 

[tiefighterboy]

So Clorox wipes alter a vintage box??? They contain chemicals.

 

[itfciain]

This is tough as I'm friends with both Joe and Todd, and I see some merit in both sides of the rational points of their arguments.

1) If a paper conservationist warns of the long term effects of these products, how long until the effects are noticeable? 10? 20? 40? years, some kind of timeline on how long it takes for them to do the long term damage. Personally I noticed a Han Hoth that I used to own the card got darker once I'd removed a sticker w. Goo Gone and that was my last time using it. When I sold it I mentioned the stain and how it got there.

2) I agree that any chemical cleansing should be disclosed when selling an item. Soap n a damp towel, not really, a white eraser to clean surface dirt off of the white edges of a box, not really. Chemically cleansing it or recoloring it, absolutely. As a comic collector, the price/value gap between original and even slightly restored books is huge.

3) I don't see things such as ironing/pressing warped boxes or cards to flatten them as restoration as you're not chemically altering it.

4) It's not something I'm against if you're doing it in your collection, just keep track of items you've altered chemically and when/if they're ever sold, disclose it. Also a light cleansing and soaking an area on a box/card with these chemicals is slightly different as the level that it penetrates the card/box will greatly effect how drastic or how soon the damage will be noticeable

5) The fact that a self proclaimed "Authority" in the hobby is participating in openly chemically altering items w.o disclosure is the real problem here. Most other 3rd party grading companies,in other hobbies (Comics, coins, cards) look out for this kind of thing and either mark it as restored,refuse or lower the grade on an item if they can see signs of chemical alteration. As this hobby grows I can see restoration becoming a much bigger issue, nipping it in the bud early will help avoid people getting something that's not in the advertised condition.

my .02
Joe

These are my thoughts exactly