The damage lighter fluid does on vintage MOC's and packaging

[finestcomics]

I have been told there may be some amount of confusion here and this may work better with less words:

- If your point is about AFA cleaning and disclosure of it.....I agree.

- If this is about LIGHTER FLUID ONLY hurting print and cardstock...once again...I agree.

- If this about little ole me or other collectors using goo-gone to remove price stickers...then I disagree

- If this is about us cleaning carded figures or flattening boxes using spray starch.........I disagree.

Pick one of these points, and let me know what it is...you seem to be all over the board.

This is as civil and straight to the point as I can be and I think for some on here...it will clear up the confusion.

On the things we agree on, we can leave those to rest.

On the ones where we might disagree (like goo gone to remove price stickers) in an ideal world, I would just ask for disclosure when selling.

Regarding flattening of boxes, I don't consider this restoration, although I would if moisture or chemical baths were involved. Dry heat pressing or cold pressing, no issue.

Spray starch is something I'm really unfamiliar with, but it sounds like it's being used to make the cardboard stiffer.

The example project box posted in this thread looks like a moderate to extensive level of restoration will be involved. I have no issue, and in fact, look at this as conserving the piece. This falls outside of my areas of concern with the use of lighter fluid (as I consider it more of a "stealth" procedure), however I do feel any restorative work should be disclosed.

 

[finestcomics]

This is tough as I'm friends with both Joe and Todd, and I see some merit in both sides of the rational points of their arguments.

1) If a paper conservationist warns of the long term effects of these products, how long until the effects are noticeable? 10? 20? 40? years, some kind of timeline on how long it takes for them to do the long term damage. Personally I noticed a Han Hoth that I used to own the card got darker once I'd removed a sticker w. Goo Gone and that was my last time using it. When I sold it I mentioned the stain and how it got there.

2) I agree that any chemical cleansing should be disclosed when selling an item. Soap n a damp towel, not really, a white eraser to clean surface dirt off of the white edges of a box, not really. Chemically cleansing it or recoloring it, absolutely. As a comic collector, the price/value gap between original and even slightly restored books is huge.

3) I don't see things such as ironing/pressing warped boxes or cards to flatten them as restoration as you're not chemically altering it.

4) It's not something I'm against if you're doing it in your collection, just keep track of items you've altered chemically and when/if they're ever sold, disclose it. Also a light cleansing and soaking an area on a box/card with these chemicals is slightly different as the level that it penetrates the card/box will greatly effect how drastic or how soon the damage will be noticeable

5) The fact that a self proclaimed "Authority" in the hobby is participating in openly chemically altering items w.o disclosure is the real problem here. Most other 3rd party grading companies,in other hobbies (Comics, coins, cards) look out for this kind of thing and either mark it as restored,refuse or lower the grade on an item if they can see signs of chemical alteration. As this hobby grows I can see restoration becoming a much bigger issue, nipping it in the bud early will help avoid people getting something that's not in the advertised condition.

my .02
Joe

Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts Joe!

 

[tiefighterboy]

That cleared up alot. :wink:

Carry on.

 

[JuniorChubb]

Civility has returned...

I wondered why this thread went so bezerk :?

 

[tiefighterboy]

Civility has returned...

I wondered why this thread went so bezerk :?

Well...........It still can blow up. At least some things were clarified. I will continue to clean my collection and do as I please with it. I know pouring large amounts of any liquid on something is not wise, but If I want to remove a price sticker..using goo gone..with no damage...that is what I am going to do. I do not feel that I need to keep an extensive log of figures I have done this to.. Actually I did some of this over 15 years ago...no damage and to be honest..I cant even remember what ones got the treatment..not that it really matters to me anyways.


The AFA thing I get...fully onboard with that.

 

[Joseph_Y]

It's a scary day in the SW hobby, when I'm the voice of reason and help END an argument..... :shock: :lol:

 

[itfciain]

It's a scary day in the SW hobby, when I'm the voice of reason and help END an argument..... :shock: :lol:

I was thinking the same thing :wink:

 

[palitoyjunky]

Well I have occasionally used lighter fluid to remove the odd price sticker that has been stuck in a place on the packaging that ruins the look of the packaging ie a price sticker slap bang in the middle of the background pic of a moc :?: if the price sticker is top left/right of the card I leave it as I too love the nostalgia especially if we r talking a Selfridges/Harrods price sticker or local toy shop we rem during our childhood 8)

As said I too have yet to c any negative effects on packaging using lighter fluid after 20 years so right now to me this all seems a bit overkill :?

Someone talks of a 10th century book etc, after over 1000 years I think one would b more worried about the bubble falling off a MOC etc

 

[OTB Records]

Just my two pennies' worth. As far as I'm aware lighter fluid evaporates very, very quickly and leaves no residue so the period for potential damage is immediate. You would notice any damage upon application and I would imagine that there is no 'ticking time bomb' due to the full evaporation. I doubt (though I could be wrong) that the printed surface would be harmed in any way due to the printer's varnish/laminate used to protect the print.

I base the above solely on experience of being a graphic designer who has used lighter fluid and equivalents for many years in the cleaning of flat printer's artwork and for removing glue residue.

Like I say, this is just my opinion and I'm not advocating the use of lighter fluid etc. on carded figures.

Also it's worth noting that one of the worst things you can possibly put into contact with paper/card/printed matter is your hands. The sweat from your hands can and does do lasting damage to many items and especially paper/card and does act as a 'ticking time bomb' and slowly stains and eats away at many materials. So should we all be wearing conservation gloves when handling our carded figures?

 

[OTB Records]

When I made my first post I hadn't read most of this thread. Am I correct in thinking that the person who made the original post is primarily into collecting American comics? If so, I find the whole concept of being weary of using something like lighter fluid on carded figures minor in comparison to some of the techniques that are utalised in the 'restoration' of American comics. Take a look here and see some of the 'processes' and 'procedures' used: http://www.ccspaper.com/services_restoration.php

These 'restoration' techniques for American comics are far more invasive and I would believe more controversial than just wiping a MOC figure over with a wipe or cleaning fluid. Many of the processes used in comic book restoration are outrageous in my opinion and far more 'criminal' than the application of any lighter fluid. Comic book restoration can take the form of colour touch-up and something called leaf casting. These kind of techniques would be frowned upon in the Star Wars vintage carded figure community.

Each genre of collecting has its own rules and ideals and these don't necessarily transfer well to other genres.

 

[OTB Records]

Sorry to post again but I just wanted to make it clear that I am not taking sides or advocating a certain method when it comes to conservation and restoration.

As I mentioned above, conservation and restoration can mean varied approaches in different areas of collecting. What might be acceptable as a process of conservation/restoration in one genre might seem outrageous in another - hence the American comic book reference. I'm not trying to say one or the other is correct as I'm an avid collector of many genres including American comic books.

I'm also all for disclosure of any invasive methods used on a collectable when it comes to conservation and restoration. If something has been tampered with to enhance its grade and/or appearance then this should be disclosed. However, I do struggle to see how using something like lighter fuel to remove a shop price sticker etc. that wasn't part of the piece when it left the factory can be deemed as invasive. As far as I'm aware (again referring to my first post) I don't believe that lighter fuel leaves any signs of use (if done with care) and doesn't act as a destructive agent over time. If this is the case, then why a need to disclose?

BTW - very interesting thread and something that I could talk about all day

 

[tiefighterboy]

I think thru all of this...it is primarily aimed at AFA....their cleaning practices and disclosure...however...other references sucked a bunch of us into it.

and Yes,,I have heard human skin oils wreak havoc on paper.

Not sure what effect semen has on the stuff though. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[palitoyjunky]

A sticky situation :lol:

 

[JuniorChubb]

Civility has returned...

I wondered why this thread went so bezerk :?

Well...........It still can blow up. At least some things were clarified. I will continue to clean my collection and do as I please with it. I know pouring large amounts of any liquid on something is not wise, but If I want to remove a price sticker..using goo gone..with no damage...that is what I am going to do. I do not feel that I need to keep an extensive log of figures I have done this to.. Actually I did some of this over 15 years ago...no damage and to be honest..I cant even remember what ones got the treatment..not that it really matters to me anyways.


The AFA thing I get...fully onboard with that.

Anything can blow up at anytime on here recently...

Personally I am not a fan of lighter fluid use, but I do feel the article is referring to degradation that may happen in hundreds of years as opposed to our lifetimes. I only have 3 MOC's myself and have not used anything but a slightly damp cloth on them, but it doesn't matter how careful with them I am, they are 30 years old and have probably had all manner of cleaning products on them in the past and they are still holding up well.

As for the AFA, no comment. Before being an 'educated' collector I really respected these guys...

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

It seems vintage Star Wars isn't the only sphere in which lighter fluid is used to unglue unwanted stickers, a quick google search shows it appears to be very widely used without adverse results.

"Lighter fluid AKA naptha (a mixture of solvents) is an EXCELLENT solvent for most gums and is also safe on almost any paper or plastic surface. It evaporates cleanly and leaves no residue. I recommend it highly for removing stickers, and recommend it over any other commonly available solvent.

BE CAREFUL: Some common solvents will melt plastics. Stick with lighter fluid and you'll be fine."
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lighter-fluid-used-to-remove-stickers-from-lp-covers-and-labels.46731/

 

[tiefighterboy]

It seems vintage Star Wars isn't the only sphere in which lighter fluid is used to unglue unwanted stickers, a quick google search shows it appears to be very widely used without adverse results.

"Lighter fluid AKA naptha (a mixture of solvents) is an EXCELLENT solvent for most gums and is also safe on almost any paper or plastic surface. It evaporates cleanly and leaves no residue. I recommend it highly for removing stickers, and recommend it over any other commonly available solvent.

BE CAREFUL: Some common solvents will melt plastics. Stick with lighter fluid and you'll be fine."
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lighter-fluid-used-to-remove-stickers-from-lp-covers-and-labels.46731/

I think lighter fluid is large amounts can do damage more so than other things, but then again..anything overdone can do damage.

 

[Ross_Barr]

As for the trickling comments on D Martin and u-grading - again, I spoke directly to the individual on those points because I felt he was acting similarly to the hard heads on Facebook that will not or cannot be convinced repros are doing harm. My only miscalculation was expecting better from him as community member.

Hello my friends from across the pond. I don't post here really ever, but Todd was nice enough to call my attention to this train wreck of a thread, and since Joe has found it necessary to take digs at me - to his credit without really naming me - I thought I should weigh in briefly.

Joe, you say that goo gone and zippo fluid will cause card backs to turn to dust? Then show us a few examples where that happened. And don't say that your cousin poured crude oil on a napkin ten years ago and it put a tiny hole in the napkin so that then means that all our MOCs are going to spontaneously combust if they come within two miles of a can of Zippo fluid. Lol

Show us proof, and stop taking shots at people, and maybe people will accept what you're saying as fact. But Todd was also clear that he used these products as long ago as 15 years ago, and nothing has happened yet. So who is right? And Richard rightly pointed out that glossy card stock ain't the same thing as paper.

And to say that people taking a stand against repros and U grades are hypocrites if they have ever used these products to clean their MOCs or remove a price sticker is just a self serving and totally ridiculous statement in furtherance of your current crusade. Your attempts to ridicule people that are trying to educate newbies on those evils of repros and U grades only to further your own cause is just despicable.

Show me a bunch of disintegrated MOCs to prove your point. Or get off your high horse, sir.

Signed,

A dude that loathes repros and U grades and is working hard to educate new collectors about the evils of same but is apparently a big hypocrite because he has taken off a few price stickers and cleaned the card with Zippo fluid and baby wipes (aka Ross Barr)

 

[finestcomics]

Zippo, that quote you posted was directed at Todd. I really think you are losing it man. But since you decided to post here, my issue with you particularly is your posting of it as a be-all-end-all solution for price sticker removal, and even ink touch ups. It's careless to not provide people with some instruction or direction - people reading your recommendations on Facebook will will think it's safe no matter how hip deep they get in it, and my point has always been that it isn't (and I suggested already to Bonsai, and now to you, to wave a lighter flame under a treated area, and you'll get your answer as to whether it's evaporated or not). It's unwise to also sell without disclosing you've treated a card with lighter fluid or goo gone. My falling out with you was over your nonchalant attitude, and continued recommendation without at least warning people of the need to disclose. You chose to look at it as an indictment of your character, when all I was asking for was some recognition that both sides should be heard on the subject. The most recent Facebook thread where you recommended one of your group members use it on an MOC to remove ink and get it to pass through AFA was brought to my attention, and the screen captures of you mentioning me in the group, when I'm not there to defend myself, was what prompted me to approach you about the issue. I did so privately, and we butted heads. You asked me not to contact you about this, but now your calling me out. You've made your choice, as have I. The rest is looking for conflict over a topic we clearly can't arrive toward any agreement over.

 

[Ross_Barr]

Zippo, that quote you posted was directed at Todd. I really think you are losing it man. But since you decided to post here, my issue with you particularly is your posting of it as a be-all-end-all solution for price sticker removal, and even ink touch ups. It's careless to not provide people with some instruction or direction - people reading your recommendations on Facebook will will think it's safe no matter how hip deep they get in it, and my point has always been that it isn't (and I suggested already to Bonsai, and now to you, to wave a lighter flame under a treated area, and you'll get your answer as to whether it's evaporated or not). It's unwise to also sell without disclosing you've treated a card with lighter fluid or goo gone. My falling out with you was over your nonchalant attitude, and continued recommendation without at least warning people of the need to disclose. You chose to look at it as an indictment of your character, when all I was asking for was some recognition that both sides should be heard on the subject. The most recent Facebook thread where you recommended one of your group members use it on an MOC to get it to pass through AFA was brought to my attention, and the screen captures of you mentioning me in the group, when I'm not there to defend myself, was what prompted me to approach you about the issue. I did so privately, and we butted heads. You asked me not to contact you about this, but now your calling me out. You've made your choice, as have I. The rest is looking for conflict over a topic we clearly can't arrive at any agreement over.

I believe I had told previously you I would direct people to your RS thread on the topic, which is why I tagged you in the post where I said that use of Zippo fluid may remove ink touch ups. I didn't remember that you weren't in the group; frankly I thought you had re-joined. As for why the member wanted to remove the ink touch ups, I can't remember whether it was to get it past AFA or not, but I don't think that's relevant. If someone can remove ink touch ups, I would think that's a positive thing. If you can prove the use of Zippo to lightly remove the ink touch ups is worse than leaving the ink touch ups there, then prove it. I tagged you in that post to give your side.

You are not the first person I have butted heads with. And you won't be the last. Anyone that would say that folks are acting hypocritical when they take a stand against repros and U grades if they also use items that haven't been proven to harm their MOCs to clean them is not someone I will ever get along with.

Rant over.

 

[finestcomics]

Fair points. Except the part about not knowing I wasn't a member and making some effort to share both sides. C'mon man, it was near the holidays when you asked me to re-join, so to say you didn't know is disingenuous. And the only people who have posted the other side have been members who were probably a little intimidated to raise the issue, and perhaps posted a link to one of my threads. The other things that ring out in my mind is how quickly you learned the ropes over u-grading, posting just a little over a year ago, asking for opinions on whether you should send in missing POP MOC's for u-grading. And then you were the first person to ask for opinions on whether it was cool to sell TT (with disclosure) within the month of the bomb being dropped on the community. It's your approach to these two topics which kind of leave me underwhelmed in this situation to be honest, when I WAS someone you claimed you trusted in PM exchanges, and now you're doing a 360, asking for proof it's unsafe and relegating me to the ranks of an idiot for asking people to disclose? Did you need proof when the people in the missing POP thread told you u-grading damages the hobby? No, you went with the way that got you to gain kinship the quickest, took the path of least resistance, and that has served you well on your current efforts to educate. That's a positive, but I just don't see how someone that appears to be grounded in rational, logical thinking, and who has polled for opinions in the past, can start a campaign to tear down another persons attempts to educate on a subject they feel is equally important to conserving the vintage toys we both enjoy collecting.