Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[panastur]

If I purchased all the parts for a rolls royce and assembled, would it still be a rolls royce ?

Damn Lee, that was exactly what i said last night to another friend... but with a F40 Ferrari parts.

...and yes, it would be a Rolls Royce. I don't know why it's accepted in the car collector world to restore a car with genuine pieces and not here...!!!??

...Only joking!

JC

 

[Lafos]

If I purchased all the parts for a rolls royce and assembled it myself, would it still be a rolls royce ?

The value of this "new" RR would not be as high as an original manufactured RR in his original condition.

AND the possible value of a car is not determined by it´s factory sealed blister.

 

[M4K3R1]

I think an important discovery by Maulster79 has been missed in the last few pages:

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

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His came from JJ when they are being pinned on Toni. Apart from Maulster79 the only other established member of this forum that said they had a similar 'ironed' hoth trooper like this was Lee Gray - who thought it came from Jim Stevenson. Again not Toni

Some 'new' members have appeared on this forum in the last week or so and are throwing a serious amount of mud all in one direction. And to me it appears agenda driven.

The actual evidence that has been contributed by established and trusted members of this forum does not look good for Toni. However some of the other 'evidence' doesn't add up and i don't think we're asking the right questions about certain people's motivations on here. If mud is flying lets make sure it sticks to the right people!!! :x

Also the hoth trooper posted by Vernon pg21, replied to on pg25, added photos on pg83.
Hoth troopers with ironed seals =2 fromm JJ, 1 from Jim, and another posted on RS by jitterbug, none are from TT.

 

[lee gray]

I think an important discovery by Maulster79 has been missed in the last few pages:

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

Image

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His came from JJ when they are being pinned on Toni. Apart from Maulster79 the only other established member of this forum that said they had a similar 'ironed' hoth trooper like this was Lee Gray - who thought it came from Jim Stevenson. Again not Toni

Some 'new' members have appeared on this forum in the last week or so and are throwing a serious amount of mud all in one direction. And to me it appears agenda driven.

The actual evidence that has been contributed by established and trusted members of this forum does not look good for Toni. However some of the other 'evidence' doesn't add up and i don't think we're asking the right questions about certain people's motivations on here. If mud is flying lets make sure it sticks to the right people!!! :x

Yeah I definately got it from jim stevenson as it was my first ever toy show i went to in 96 when POTF2 came out and me and my mate Adam popped down to westminster toyfair that was advertised in model and collector mart and he bought a kenner leai bespin and me the hoth trooper with real messed up bubble although the card was creaseless but i just couldnt stand the look of the bubble and i thought it was glued, so i wanted shot of it, if i recall it only cost me 35 pound and let me mate have it for 20

 

[Grant_C]

I have a bad feeling about this- Han Solo

Guys,

The allegation is about 20+ years.

Its going to take time to get to the truth and I think everyone is doing a great job.

I don't think everything is as it seems and don't feel comfortable with this at all. Maybe its something simple, maybe not.

I stepping back from all this. Feel free to PM or phone for banter on it.

Keep taking those photos and making comparisons on trades, asking questions- im sure something will come of it.

Today is a big STAR WARS DAY.

Why?

Because this thread got to 100 pages?

Nope.

In 2 years today we will all be cold, standing outside a cinema. in 2 years today- Episode VII opens.

Good Luck

 

[**Delboy75**]

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

 

[panastur]

Here's another i found in my stack of cardbacks... a 65 back Snowtrooper with clear sealing attempt iron marks.
Don't remember where i bought it...sorry :?

JC

 

[plantman]

I think Josh's breakdown on TIG is an excellent idea, and maybe should be added to and pinned to the start of the thread, ill discuss with Joe if he wants to take control of that.

 

[**Delboy75**]

That bubble also came off leaving very little damage.

 

[Stargeezer]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

 

[spoons]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

the bubble is also correct on this one, if the wear is genuine bubble wear

 

[panastur]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

the bubble is also correct on this one, if the wear is genuine bubble wear

mmmm :? . The inside toe can't touch the bubble, so it seems impossible to be a genuine rub off. Looks like a typical play wear... A TT recard maybe??

 

[robsolo32]

Toni being silent is all the proof i need personally but like Joe says if we can find one of his U grade figures mounted on a card that would be perfect.

I agree here! You find one, and the rest would be "guilty by association."

Rob

 

[lee gray]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

 

[**Delboy75**]

I would be fairly certain the easiest way to spot the fakes would be by the back of the card.

All the genuine ones ive seen so far have marks on the back from where the bubbles were attached.
The correct press would apply a fair amount of force, so it marks the back of the cards.

Checking my old pics and none of the one I bought from Toni in 2011 had this, which would indicate they were either glued or heat was applied from the front.

The more I see the more the colours are off too. Josh on RS posted a real GM Dengar next to a Toni one and the Toni one is way darker, too much black so its another possible reject.

 

[PIGCITY]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

:wink:

 

[itfciain]

Just been through some of mine and found 4 that would fit into this category - none came directly from Toni but all are minty - not really sure what to look out for - there are certainly no iron marks - the only one with a pink dot next to Chewie is the Lobot. If anyone wants close up pic of anything then let me know

 

[tiefighterboy]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

 

[itfciain]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

Is it though. I am confused by the relevance that JJ has to this whole mess. Whatever his involvement at the start (something he has admitted) - it is Toni that has been selling these cards off for the past X amount of years

Can anyone trace a line back to JJ for a card that they have purchase in the past 10 years?

 

[tiefighterboy]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

Is it though. I am confused by the relevance that JJ has to this whole mess. Whatever his involvement at the start (something he has admitted) - it is Toni that has been selling these cards off for the past X amount of years

Can anyone trace a line back to JJ for a card that they have purchase in the past 10 years?

Can anyone find any hard evidence in what he is saying????? Toni is suspect for sure, but I feel there is much more to this whole mess than meets the eye. Everyone seems to think that a Quality Department at Palitoy catches 100% of defects and that they would reject packaging (meant to be a container for product) for the slightest error. It is a business and for profit. These were never intended to be high end blemish free collectible and as some one said before...when a factory has stock to get rid of and closing...they tend to get really sloppy (Two packs for example). I also think If you put any carded figures under a microscope \you will find that bubbles can vary and be off. I do agree you guys may have found something off, but I also think there is a huge amount of panic based on some amount of potential evidence found by individuals and a huge amouint of conjecture by someone who may have another motive after many years of silence in the community.

Just my opinion. :wink:

In addition...No list has come up (That could be manufactured anyways) and a handful of poorly resealed product...that could have been made yesterday for all anyone knows.